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Old 04-05-2014, 00:11   #166
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Just guessing, but I believe it was a comment on the difference between theoretical knowledge verses practical experience.
Not only that. Even in a case where we could say all the experts being competent in the practical aspects too there's still a need of supervisor to see they are going into same direction..
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Old 04-05-2014, 01:35   #167
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Not only that. Even in a case where we could say all the experts being competent in the practical aspects too there's still a need of supervisor to see they are going into same direction..
Indeed. Thanks for a thoughtful take on the proposition.

The designer would almost always prefer to fill this role, and in a perfect world they're the ideal person to do that, but in the real world, even if they have lots of ocean crossing experience in similar circumstances to the client, they're often heavily invested in a certain ethos or way of doing things.

Successful designers are often rather strong-willed, and once they've decided they understand what the client needs, it can be hard to influence them. It's important to adjust any misdirection as early in the process as possible.

Also, they may need but not have engineering support (or if they do, they may have someone unsuitable)

... so the 'same direction' referred to by Teddy, if the designer gets to dictate it, may diverge somewhat -- especially when it comes down to the finer points not evident from the study plans, -- from what would suit the client's needs, aspirations and abilities.

I think the ideal project manager for boats in the 40 - 70' range would have filled more of a sailing master role, working for a variety of owners and skippers, rather than being primarily an owner-skipper, a pro skipper, or a delivery skipper.

Skippers tend to have too much autonomy to truly learn how to understand and respect other people's ways of doing things, and delivery skippers tend to have to 'make do' in ways which would probably make them insufficiently demanding for the role. Too few constraints in the first case, and too many in the second.

Above 70', possibly a 1st Engineer from a maxi or superyacht background would be a better fit than a sailing master. Provided they had spent a lot of time on deck, and had pursued a keen interest in sailing manoeuvres and sail handling.
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:01   #168
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Interesting topic but you can tell from the comments and opinions who has done extensive cruising. Cruising is not having the fastest boat although speed is an asset and can add to safety but you can give up some speed for good sea keeping manners and a layout below that works for both passage making as well as living aboard. You need a boat that can carry a decent load and that has excellent storage capacity. You need a boat that is real comfy to live on because that's what you will be using it for 90% of the time and you'll soon not be praying at the speed alter if you are not happy with all the other really important parts of a good cruising boat.
Also don't buy into the concept that the newest cheapest production boats are tough because they are used in the charter industry. That is bunk, the charter industry uses big cheap boats because, well, they are big and cheap. Nothing new in this concept as the Morgan OI41 filled that bill many years ago. Very seldom are these boats sailed hard, mostly they are motored hard and they keep a team of boat repair guys going full time fixing them.
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Old 04-05-2014, 05:38   #169
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

And considering the pros and cons of multiple aspects of decent 'bluewater cruiser' I find me often disagreeing with myself as the client, project manager, designer and builder of my boat..
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Old 04-05-2014, 08:42   #170
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Cruising is not having the fastest boat although speed is an asset and can add to safety but you can give up some speed for good sea keeping manners and a layout below that works for both passage making as well as living aboard. You need a boat that can carry a decent load and that has excellent storage capacity. You need a boat that is real comfy to live on because that's what you will be using it for 90% of the time and you'll soon not be praying at the speed alter if you are not happy with all the other really important parts of a good cruising boat.

You have very good points Robert
Thus the reason why I custom build out my boat for offshore. Seams like no matter how many boats I look at, none of them are exactly what I am looking for. So so as long as I have a solid foundation to start with, I end up re-arranging interiors, cockpits, and rigging to suite my needs.
But I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect offshore yacht. I just do the best with what I have and go for it!

Rob
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:50   #171
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

I'm working on a new hull design of a 60' schooner I plan on building in the Philippines. It will be a combination of traditional design with high tech materials. Will post updates as I complete the design.

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Old 04-05-2014, 11:10   #172
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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I'm working on a new hull design of a 60' schooner I plan on building in the Philippines. It will be a combination of traditional design with high tech materials. Will post updates as I complete the design.

Wow. An honest to god full keel. What program are you using to aid on design? I've played around a little with a few different ones "designing" sailboats.

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Old 04-05-2014, 11:54   #173
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Wow. An honest to god full keel. What program are you using to aid on design? I've played around a little with a few different ones "designing" sailboats.

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I'm using Catia V5. Its very good with surfacing

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Old 04-05-2014, 12:53   #174
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Talking Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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OR

You could just get a Catamaran.
Can pee anywhere... and not miss... if that is the criteria... and.. doesnt roll too much at anchor... jes sayin'

What?!
Oh the humanity! To be forced to such lengths for a simple bodily function. Oh the unjust fate.
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Old 04-05-2014, 12:57   #175
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Wow. An honest to god full keel. What program are you using to aid on design? I've played around a little with a few different ones "designing" sailboats.

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Make it a double ender and round that Clipper bow and you have Ingrid. Young gonna use bamboo?
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Old 04-05-2014, 15:53   #176
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Make it a double ender and round that Clipper bow and you have Ingrid. Young gonna use bamboo?
Hahaha, well the Ingrid is much too tubby for my preference.

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Old 04-05-2014, 16:55   #177
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

@bigjer40,

For what it's worth, these are the criteria I went through in order when I was looking for my vessel. I was specifically looking for bluewater capable, because I value safety and wanted a vessel that was strong and forgiving in large seas.

Criteria:
1. Known hull design, by known designer. I selected a Sparkman & Stephens design.
2. Known boat yard with reputation. I selected Tyler Co. UK, though not been around for many years, they have history and I researched that they had a positive reputation for quality workmanship.
3. Well maintained & bluewater fitout: radar, VHF, Liferaft, over-rated rigging, sail inventory for trade wind cruising, autopilot, wind vein steering, wind gen, reliable diesel, large water & fuel tanks, etc. Of course you need to know the details of what you want and what ticks the boxes for you. Details gleaned from a few reads of some key books from Calder, Moitessier, Coles, Cunliffe, the Pardey's, anything from RYA and so on.
4. A good Surveyor, who is an experienced offshore sailor and understands your ability, budget and needs in a vessel
5. Understanding of cost to get her to spec for what you want
6. Acknowledgement that you need to spend money on upkeep and (hopefully minor) repairs from day 1, annually and ongoing to keep her ship-shape and seaworthy. Don't forget: haul-out & antifoul must be done yearly, rigging must be replaced every 10 years, repaint needed about every 8 years, fibreglass needs maintaining, and sails wear out. This is the same no matter how old your vessel, there are always repairs.

Now, I do not consider myself a bluewater sailor. I hope to one day make for the Pacific and beyond. I specifically selected a bluewater capable vessel, as I wanted one boat to last and not be buying, selling, buying every other year to upgrade. I wanted bluewater capable, so she would be forgiving on my mistakes as I learned more, seakindly so my wife felt safer and secure in larger swell, strong and reliable if we hit a storm and lastly; a beautiful classic that looks like a real sailing yacht.

Sure, she is slow off the start, heavy, things need repairing. But I know every single component can be repaired (I have a spare everything!).

For now I am content learning by reading as much as possible, tackling the East Coast (Australia) short hops, and building up experience. I'll go bluewater after I complete the 1000nm or so up the Barrier Reef and back. There is no rush, as I want to be prepared and enjoy myself, not rush into it and make a potentially lethal mistake.

To those naysayers stating "bluewater is overkill and only 1% really go into the deep". Experience, safety and preparation win over bravado any day.

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Old 04-05-2014, 18:04   #178
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Polux, I'm curious. You completely blasted that design for only presenting one point of view. Yet, you then turn around and insist that YOUR point of view is the only one that is truly viable. Do you not see the hypocrisy here?

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See, my point of view, as I have said already, is that there is not only a type of voyage offshore bluewater boat but several types with different strong and weak points. It is not really my point of view but a fact because they exist on the market and are chosen as voyage boats by different types of long range cruisers.

Harries want to make believe that is not true that there is a single type of bluewater boat, fit to all, the one he prefers, off course. It has only advantages while all other types have all the disadvantages. It just does not make sense.

I did not "completely blasted" his design, for what I can see it is not a bad boat (and I said that already), just outdated for the type.

What pisses me is not the design but Harries trying to convince everybody that his is the only perfect bluewater boat.
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Old 04-05-2014, 18:42   #179
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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....
In the case of Stanley Paris, the fact that his boat was effectively a racing boat, drawn up by a racing design office, does not seem to have helped, because what he ended up with was manifestly unsuitable for his purpose.

Dr Paris takes no responsibility for that, claiming he was let down by his multiple experts.
A racing boat: very funny

"Kiwi Spirit hull 1 of the Farr-designed Paris 63, Lyman-Morse’s new 63 foot performance offshore family cruiser ....An easy to manage sail plan has never been more important; Bruce Farr and his team have designed and engineered the Paris 63 for speed, sea kindliness, safety and ease of handling. The hydraulic lifting keel will provide excellent offshore performance with a draft of 14’9”. The keel lifts to 8’7” to access most of the world’s harbors. ...Looks-wise, the Paris 63 is classic Farr, the wide beam carried a long way aft allows for an excellent working cockpit and an expanse below that one finds on most yachts of over 70 feet. This enables the interior to give comfort even during the most arduous passages. Farr drew a hard dodger semi-enclosed cockpit to provide excellent protection from the weather. "

and Farr a racing design office Yes they design racing boats, and all the Bavarias too.

As you should know the failure that lead Paris to give up had nothing to do with the boat design or type, I mean hull type and general layout but with the material chosen for the rig, namely furlers. He should have the boat rigged by the ones that have experience in that type of solo boats (French) instead he had Lyman-Morse doing it. They are great in what regards luxury yachts but don't have any experience with this kind of boats.

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Designers might have done some offshore cruising in their past (very rare, in my experience) or racing (more common, but usually predominantly inshore - almost the exact opposite of 'blue water cruising' in every way)

... and even offshore racing, particularly with big, competent crews, is hardly a venue for learning about the challenges facing short-handed offshore cruisers, ordinary folk, with limited physical and technical resources, and an entirely different focus.
What is the NA that you are talking about with no offshore sailing experience?

Just to give you an example of one that designs many of the new Beneteau, here you have Pascal Conq:



Top left. He is posing with the full crew of a cruising 50ft Pogo that on the racing class make 2th in real time on a recent ARC. He is also the designer of that boat. On is youth he was a top racer having won the 1985 sailing "tour de France".

As you can see by the crew they are old timers and among them the owner of the Shipyard that builds the Pogo. In is youth he was a solo racer with many solo transats.

Maybe you are referring to American NAs? Pascal Conq's case is a very common one in Europe where many designers where or are avid sailors.
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Old 04-05-2014, 18:59   #180
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Harries may have a functional design but its near the top of my ugly list and if you look closely at the aluminum welding it looks more like chicken dodo than quality welding. Back in the day when I was a certified aluminum welder, I would have been fired for putting out welds like that

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