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Old 02-05-2014, 21:26   #136
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Hard to see how Darwinian selection can work, given that the most important items of 'safety' equipment are now widely held to be things which have nothing to do with safety, but everything to do with rescue.

And it's hard to see a high-functioning, vicarious process of mass learning taking place as a substitute.

I say that because (for eg) we're seeing with the recent Beneteau 50 sinking, that by and large those who liked and those who disliked the scantlings and structural features have, if anything, only firmed up their respective positions.
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Old 03-05-2014, 00:46   #137
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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Yes, no more voyage or bluewater boats are made anymore since they all are made with the characteristics that make them marina boats.
I think the dilemma lies behind the fact that manufacturers rarely publish engineering facts behind their boats. So the marketing folks, sail magazines and individual sailors makeup their minds by the 'appereance' of a boat rather than what's the quality under the paint and bling.
There's also the mindset of a sailor. If you know for sure you got a sound and seaworthy boat you push it harder, don't bother so much about forecasts etc... and vice versa. In the end there's as much accident happening to all kind of boats..
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:12   #138
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

I would like to see the yachting industry use directional linear ply buildup using linear strand S glass tape.
When we designed the Boeing 787 we placed linear carbon fiber tape in the direction of the stress to strengthen areas where it needed it the most and where there would be collision hazard, we would do crosshatch buildup. Thus the concept is, you can custom design in more strength in the direction of the stress.
Fiberglass boat building at best just uses the same woven cloth or matting that is the same structural strength over the entire structure and just build it up heavier where they want it to be stronger.
If we used that method on the airplane, it would be much heavier and not near as strong.
The fact of the matter is, boat design has much potential to become better and stronger, but labor and material cost is holding it back.

Yacht builders sell to the masses, and the masses do not sail offshore. only about 5% of us do, and that is not enough market share for any boat builder to make a profit.
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:25   #139
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

I've read a "few" of these threads over the years. This one seems to have more crap false info that most! Hell it even has someone saying all the boat designers don't know anything. Don't know what it is about these threads that bring out people willing to put them "name" on false info posts in an effort to sound like they know something. Maybe it is some kind of mob thinking.
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:31   #140
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pirate Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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I've read a "few" of these threads over the years. This one seems to have more crap false info that most! Hell it even has someone saying all the boat designers don't know anything. Don't know what it is about these threads that bring out people willing to put them "name" on false info posts in an effort to sound like they know something. Maybe it is some kind of mob thinking.
Think you need to cut down on the morning caffine...
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:03   #141
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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I've read a "few" of these threads over the years. This one seems to have more crap false info that most! Hell it even has someone saying all the boat designers don't know anything. Don't know what it is about these threads that bring out people willing to put them "name" on false info posts in an effort to sound like they know something. Maybe it is some kind of mob thinking.
Why do you waste your time posting such rude, obnoxious comments?
If you don't have something constructive or factual to add to the discussion.... then don't.

Jeez... lighten up.
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:39   #142
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Regarding modern production boat designers and manufacturers, the battle is won for saleability over sailability.

....
Yes, but only guys that own old boats and have not the money to buy a new one know about it. All those guys buying bluewater and voyage boats for a fortune don't know nothing about boats. They are mistaken by that saleability stuff. If they know better and because the conspiracy among all main NA prevents the existence on the market of no saleable boats, they would do better buying a good old boat, a 30 year old one, designed as it should be designed, after all things boats, cars, and airplanes are not better now then 30 year's ago when all were a lot more heavy and built to last.
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:47   #143
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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to strengthen areas where it needed it the most and where there would be collision hazard, we would do crosshatch buildup. ...
Would not be better using kevlar on those impact zones? I mean like Bavaria does?
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:53   #144
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Yes, but only guys that own old boats and have not the money to buy a new one know about it. All those guys buying bluewater and voyage boats for a fortune don't know nothing about boats. They are mistaken by that saleability stuff. If they know better and because the conspiracy among all main NA prevents the existence on the market of no saleable boats, they would do better buying a good old boat, a 30 year old one, designed as it should be designed.
Nope, not true. We looked at many old sturdy tubs from the 70's & 80's before deciding to go newer and buy a Hunter 450 five years ago. The boats we were considering at the time Tayana 38, Baba 35 & 40 and Hans Christian 38. None of them offered the livability and comforts of the Hunter for the money, plus... most of the systems on those older boats required either replacement or major repairs. At the time, we were returning to the boats we knew from back in the early 80's. By 2008, most of them were well worn and used up and needed just about everything.

My wife and I went and looked at a Hans Christian 38 and Baba 35 last weekend just for kicks... and for the money, unless someone just liked working on boats during all their free time... they'd be wiser to buy something 20-25 years newer. Less hassle, more enjoyment and probably less money in the long run. IMHO
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Old 03-05-2014, 09:05   #145
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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I think the dilemma lies behind the fact that manufacturers rarely publish engineering facts behind their boats. So the marketing folks, sail magazines and individual sailors makeup their minds by the 'appereance' of a boat rather than what's the quality under the paint and bling.
There's also the mindset of a sailor. If you know for sure you got a sound and seaworthy boat you push it harder, don't bother so much about forecasts etc... and vice versa. In the end there's as much accident happening to all kind of boats..
You can have all the information you want before buying a boat. If you are in doubt most shipyards will invite you for a tour. I have seen several and in some I was accompanied by the builder or the resident NA and all my questions were answered very effectively.

Of course there are people that buy a boat only looking at the interior, others will buy for the best price the bigger boat they can afford. Even so the market offer is way better than 30 years ago where you had good boats mixed with bad boats. Today due to the RCD and the huge competition there are very few bad boats and even those are rapidly replaced by better ones. A much more tough market drive quickly to bankruptcy those that does not offer a good product for the price.

Off course, you buy what you pay for. You can except the same quality on same sized boats one costing 150 000 euros the other 450 000 but the quality and seaworthiness is not proportional to price and in what regards that the 150 000 euro boat is surprisingly close and in what regards sailing it can be even better in some aspects.

Regarding pushing harder and be worried with forecasts, I have a countryman that circumnavigated solo two times on the same "cheap" Bavaria 36. Do you really think the boat should be built tougher considering that 95% of the sailors would sail that boat coastly?
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Old 03-05-2014, 09:09   #146
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Nope, not true. We looked at many old sturdy tubs from the 70's & 80's before deciding to go newer and buy a Hunter 450 five years ago. The boats we were considering at the time Tayana 38, Baba 35 & 40 and Hans Christian 38. None of them offered the livability and comforts of the Hunter for the money, plus... most of the systems on those older boats required either replacement or major repairs. At the time, we were returning to the boats we knew from back in the early 80's. By 2008, most of them were well worn and used up and needed just about everything.

My wife and I went and looked at a Hans Christian 38 and Baba 35 last weekend just for kicks... and for the money, unless someone just liked working on boats during all their free time... they'd be wiser to buy something 20-25 years newer. Less hassle, more enjoyment and probably less money in the long run. IMHO
Sorry about that I was just joking I didn't believe someone thought I was for real
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Old 03-05-2014, 09:43   #147
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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I've read a "few" of these threads over the years. This one seems to have more crap false info that most! Hell it even has someone saying all the boat designers don't know anything. Don't know what it is about these threads that bring out people willing to put them "name" on false info posts in an effort to sound like they know something. Maybe it is some kind of mob thinking.
Always difficult to tell when someone paints with such broad strokes, and a lack of a specific reference - but methinks you may be confusing 'information' with 'opinion'...

;-)
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Old 03-05-2014, 09:56   #148
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Sorry about that I was just joking I didn't believe someone thought I was for real
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Nice bog. Now I get it. The sailing wing concept looks promising.
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:25   #149
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

BTW, I don't believe this has been referenced yet in this thread...

As usual, John Harries offers a most excellent take on this subject:

Five Ways That Bad Boats Happen–Part 1
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:30   #150
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Would not be better using Kevlar on those impact zones? I mean like Bavaria does?
Yes, some kevlar would definitely help with impact. too much of it will loose structualy regidity as Kevlar is not as rigid as S glass, but it is more impact resistant.

The main material used in production yachts is E-glass which is medium strength fiberglass. They will use S-glass maybe on stringers keel and stem areas or around the gunwales but not on the entire hull. Depending on how it is laid up it can be 50% stronger than E-Glass.
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