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Old 07-01-2014, 19:53   #91
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

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You guys are lucky, it's January, do you have any idea how much it costs to run the AC down here?

Sheesh, some people don't know how good they got it.
Wasn't it 2 degrees in Orlando FL yesterday?
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Old 07-01-2014, 19:54   #92
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

SURFERS at Sleeping Bear Dunes, Michigan 07,JAN,2014. Real temperature below zero.

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Old 07-01-2014, 20:00   #93
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

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On the matter of conservation and stewardship of our resources, oil is much more important as a feed stock for everything we make and use. I agree we need to find another way to make our vehicles roll down the road. Taxing the snot out of production is not the way.
I believe that ending the subsidization of fossil fuel production and consumption would be a good start. I do realize it's not politically possible because cheap fuel is a big crutch for the currently limping US domestic economy. But the real costs not covered by low fuel prices will simply draw from other budgets. Pay now, or pay later.

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The sooner the gov't stops micromanaging everything and gets out of the way the better.
Out of the way of whom? The free market? Without the government, the crash of 2008 would have made the US into Venezuela. Unfettered capitalism isn't always your friend, and the government isn't always your enemy.

(Nice surf shot btw. Which one is you?)
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Old 07-01-2014, 20:02   #94
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

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Ok, you're busted.


Tell me, did you at any point think that the AMA had a greater interest in fudging clinical data than big tobacco had in denying and stifling the proof that tobacco can cause cancer?
Follow the money Amigo....a "scientist" that speaks out risks attack, loss of job and loss of funding. It's the Alar apple, DDT and egale eggs, Bran muffin, Caffeen, herd mentality all over again. Anytime I hear the word "consensis" used in Science, i know they are a hack because a consensis means nothing. The earth was flat by consensis, the sun revolved around the earth was consensis. Science has nothing to do with consensis but with Facts, Hypothesis, Theroys and then testing said theories. And since the MMGW Cult can't explain what is going on with their models (ie Hypothesis) then folks...that ain't science...it is money laundering.

But again...we settled this all in the "Save the Planet" thread, where we agreed man would do nothing to stop it.
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Old 07-01-2014, 20:14   #95
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

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Follow the money Amigo
Yep

http://www.drexel.edu/~/media/Files/...%20Change.ashx

Almost a $1,000,000,000 a year will keep some folks in line.
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Old 07-01-2014, 20:17   #96
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

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Follow the money Amigo


LEFT: Climate science grants
RIGHT: Fossil-fuel industry PR and lobbying

I am following the money. Why aren't you?
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But again...we settled this all in the "Save the Planet" thread, where we agreed man would do nothing to stop it.
No, we agreed you like trolling me.
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Old 07-01-2014, 20:26   #97
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

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Anytime I hear the word "consensis" used in Science, i know they are a hack because a consensis means nothing. The earth was flat by consensis, the sun revolved around the earth was consensis.
No, those are dogma. Like the Al Gore demonization, or this myth of corrupted climate science.

I tell you true, if we can just stay on discussing data, we both have alot more meat to chew on, because I agree that the "consensis" around what will happen is still just an educated guess. You don't need all that anti-science/conspiracy/lefty utopia crap to make your point.
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Old 07-01-2014, 20:37   #98
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

And against this backdrop of strum and drang is the simple fact that the predicate of MMGW - atmospheric sensitivity to CO2 - is daily being proven incorrect, therefore the $1bn per DAY we are spending to fight this windmill is wasted.

This is a very balanced view of this topic, with a number of observations by one of the world's most respected climate scientists (until of course he criticized global warming hysteriacs and threatened their grant access, at which point he became a moron). Worth a read.

What Catastrophe? | The Weekly Standard

The whole 'follow the money' canard is effectively disposed of by someone who should know.
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Old 07-01-2014, 20:41   #99
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

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Anytime I hear the word "consensis" used in Science, i know they are a hack because a consensis means nothing.
Never studied the epistemology and ontology of science, I guess.

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Thomas Samuel Kuhn (1922–1996) is one of the most influential philosophers of science of the twentieth century, perhaps the most influential. His 1962 book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions is one of the most cited academic books of all time. Kuhn's contribution to the philosophy of science marked not only a break with several key positivist doctrines, but also inaugurated a new style of philosophy of science that brought it closer to the history of science. His account of the development of science held that science enjoys periods of stable growth punctuated by revisionary revolutions. To this thesis, Kuhn added the controversial ‘incommensurability thesis’, that theories from differing periods suffer from certain deep kinds of failure of comparability.
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In the postscript to the second edition of The Structure of Scientific Revolutions Kuhn says of paradigms in this sense that they are “the most novel and least understood aspect of this book” (1962/1970a, 187). The claim that the consensus of a disciplinary matrix is primarily agreement on paradigms-as-exemplars is intended to explain the nature of normal science and the process of crisis, revolution, and renewal of normal science. It also explains the birth of a mature science. Kuhn describes an immature science, in what he sometimes calls its ‘pre-paradigm’ period, as lacking consensus. Competing schools of thought possess differing procedures, theories, even metaphysical presuppositions. Consequently there is little opportunity for collective progress. Even localized progress by a particular school is made difficult, since much intellectual energy is put into arguing over the fundamentals with other schools instead of developing a research tradition. However, progress is not impossible, and one school may make a breakthrough whereby the shared problems of the competing schools are solved in a particularly impressive fashion. This success draws away adherents from the other schools, and a widespread consensus is formed around the new puzzle-solutions.
A very good example is the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum physics. Einstein, alone, argued that God does not play dice with the universe.

Years later Hawking remarked,

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So God does play dice with the universe. All the evidence points to him being an inveterate gambler, who throws the dice on every possible occasion.
The consensus was correct, Einstein was wrong.
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Old 07-01-2014, 20:44   #100
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Yep

http://www.drexel.edu/~/media/Files/...%20Change.ashx

Almost a $1,000,000,000 a year will keep some folks in line.
Yep.

What we got for $50 billion in 'green' stimulus - Oct. 3, 2012

50 times that amount in the U.S. alone on circle the drain green energy projects that contribute nothing to anything other to the pockets of MMGW advocates. So on your theory, we now have the explanation for why support of MMGW exists - it's profitable, 50 times more so than opposing it.

Actually of course, it is far more profitable than that, with an average of $1,000,000,000 a DAY spent on reducing an atmospheric gas now shown to have very little impact on climate.

So, yes, follow the money.
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Old 07-01-2014, 20:45   #101
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
And against this backdrop of strum and drang is the simple fact that the predicate of MMGW - atmospheric sensitivity to CO2 - is daily being proven incorrect, therefore the $1bn per DAY we are spending to fight this windmill is wasted.

This is a very balanced view of this topic, with a number of observations by one of the world's most respected climate scientists (until of course he criticized global warming hysteriacs and threatened their grant access, at which point he became a moron). Worth a read.

What Catastrophe? | The Weekly Standard

The whole 'follow the money' canard is effectively disposed of by someone who should know.
Too late. Lindzen has already been discredited.

Can't take much more of this global warming

Can't take much more of this global warming
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Old 07-01-2014, 20:50   #102
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

The USA Has sent 16B combating Global Warming outside of the USA....again follow the Money.

Of Course Big Oil is right there along side Big Research lapping up the tax dollars. Who ever said both sides were not both playing the Patomic two step in search of money? Certainly never me.....

My problem as a realist and scientist is two fold:
1. If MMGW was real then the followers of the religion would be changing THEIR lives and rooting for a nuke plant in every town. The are not on both account. Jackdale may be a true believer, but he still heats his house and drives his car that is killing his grandkids.

2. If MMGW was real, there is nothing we can do about it now anyway, because by the Religions own models, we have already crossed the threshold and the damage is done. You can't reduce the CO2 emissions enough to stop what they say will kill us all. So what's the point of all this except as the UN prooses to take money from the Wealthy Nations and GIVE it to the poor...and guess who gets their cut...yep...you guessed it.

I guess I can throw in a No 3, but I'm not sure it is really needed.
3. Why is CHANGE of the planet BAD? If MMGW really happens, heck there will be lots of great consequences but remember Panic, doomsday, and death sells and so the modern version of snake oil salesman sell the MMGW until the next big panic comes along. If these scammers would have been around millions of years ago when oxygen producing bacteria were changing the Earth...man on man would they have screamed wouldn't they.
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Old 07-01-2014, 20:53   #103
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

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Never studied the epistemology and ontology of science, I guess.





A very good example is the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum physics. Einstein, alone, argued that God does not play dice with the universe.

Years later Hawking remarked,



The consensus was correct, Einstein was wrong.
Interesting you should take this on. In the article I posted above, the author notes that many MMGW campaigners use opposition to plate tectonics as an example of those they call "Climate Deniers." Of course, these folks get it exactly wrong, with the 'scientific consensus' of the time bitterly opposed to the idea of tectonics moving continents. It was the 'consensus' that proved ill grounded in reality. Come to think of it, so did the consensus in favor of a steady state universe, space aether, Ptolemaic geocentrism, and Aristotle's view that lasted for about 1,000 years that women had fewer teeth than men.

And now we have a consensus that human emissions of CO2 are responsible for warming, even though during the Middle Ages warming period it was warmer today and atmospheric CO2 was significantly less. (I think another group of 'consensus' promoters are about to be made fools of.....)
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Old 07-01-2014, 21:00   #104
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

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The USA Has sent 16B combating Global Warming outside of the USA....again follow the Money.

Of Course Big Oil is right there along side Big Research lapping up the tax dollars. Who ever said both sides were not both playing the Patomic two step in search of money? Certainly never me.....

My problem as a realist and scientist is two fold:
1. If MMGW was real then the followers of the religion would be changing THEIR lives and rooting for a nuke plant in every town. The are not on both account. Jackdale may be a true believer, but he still heats his house and drives his car that is killing his grandkids.

2. If MMGW was real, there is nothing we can do about it now anyway, because by the Religions own models, we have already crossed the threshold and the damage is done. You can't reduce the CO2 emissions enough to stop what they say will kill us all. So what's the point of all this except as the UN prooses to take money from the Wealthy Nations and GIVE it to the poor...and guess who gets their cut...yep...you guessed it.

I guess I can throw in a No 3, but I'm not sure it is really needed.
3. Why is CHANGE of the planet BAD? If MMGW really happens, heck there will be lots of great consequences but remember Panic, doomsday, and death sells and so the modern version of snake oil salesman sell the MMGW until the next big panic comes along. If these scammers would have been around millions of years ago when oxygen producing bacteria were changing the Earth...man on man would they have screamed wouldn't they.
Sensible post. Here is a paper from economists at MIT that even though they think the planet is going to warm 5 - 7 degrees C by end of century, STILL think the anti-global warming campaign is a pig in a poke.

Global warming not worth the fight - The Tech

But the good news is that with the exception of those making money on this particular aberration, serious scientists are assessing why with increasing CO2 we have no warming, and are reaching the conclusion that while no doubt mankind has some effect on climate, it is a gnat fart in a hurricane compared to natural causes. And an increasing number of scientists are now modeling increases in average global temperatures in the less than 2 degrees C range, which would be entirely beneficial.

So if MIT thinks it not worth the cost to fight what they accept as 6 degrees C warming, how much should we spend fighting a beneficial 2 degrees?

Nothing comes to mind, no pun intended.
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Old 07-01-2014, 21:03   #105
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Re: Can't take much more of this global warming

Consensus is the Antithesis of Science.


Because a majority of scientists once believed the sun revolved around the earth did not make it so. Their “Consensus” was proven wrong by that stubborn thing known as Truth.
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