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Old 11-02-2008, 11:33   #1
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Budget for Extra Passengers

Hi, I've been reading the forum for awhile but this is my first post. I've read a lot about what people say about annual budgets, but from what I've gathered these budgets are most often for 2 passengers. So my question is how much extra does it cost for additional passengers? I would assume that each additional passenger would lower the cost per person considerably since maintenance, moorage fees, and other similar costs would stay essentially the same. If anyone has any experience with this I'd appreciate it if you could share how much extra each person cost, whether it be a dollar amount or a percent of your overall budget.

The reason I'm interested in this is I've been thinking that I'd love to set off on an adventure in my late twenties before I get settled down and that it would be nice if i could share this adventure with my friends but was unsure about how much extra it would cost. Thanks for your input!
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:03   #2
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Are you assuming that your friends are willing to contribute money/time/materials/food etc?
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Old 11-02-2008, 13:11   #3
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I would think that the main extra cost would be food. That is actually a small part of some of the annual budgets. Oh yeah you said "Early 20's" So I'd say any savings would probably overshadowed by an increase in the alcohol budget.
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Old 11-02-2008, 14:47   #4
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The increase is in consumables, food, booze, water.

Our sailing norm is new food one night, leftovers the next and about once a week we do “happy hour” a plate with bits and pieces of whatever else is left plus cheese, olives, crackers, and the like.

With guests, it’s new food every night.

Being in a more “social” setting we drink more with guests aboard, and they match or beat us in consumption.

They are not used to conserving water as you will be and water usage more than doubles.

Our deal with guests is usually that when they come aboard, the tanks are full and the cupboard is well stocked. While on board, we share expenses for all these consumables. When they leave, we have full tanks. We don’t try to estimate cost of food consumed that was already on board, only for stuff we buy during their stay.

Don’t get into the flap about becoming a charter if guests contribute to costs. There are threads here on that and at least in the US it has been clearly established that cost sharing is not chartering.

There is a chance repairs will be slightly greater as they might break something due to not being familiar. I had an outboard fuel hose fitting damaged beyond repair but gee the cost of that repair as compared to having fun with friends is a small price to pay.

They also contribute to sailing, cooking and or cleaning up, standing watches, etc. I don’t know how to estimate the value of extra hands docking, standing anchor watch, etc. but it is nice.

George
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Old 11-02-2008, 19:39   #5
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Sorry if I didn't make it clearer in my first post. So far my thoughts go something like this: I would buy a boat and have enough money left over for my girlfriend and myself to sail around the world for a few years then see if any of my friends would be interested in going along, whether it be for 6 months or the whole trip.

So my question was meant to inquire about how much extra it would likely add to the budget if the additional passengers were there for extended periods, i.e. they are fellow liveaboards. Because of this I would assume that its not going to be a 24/7 party like it might be on a week long voyage, but rather the same type of trip that two people would take, just with a few additional passengers. I'm mainly interested in finding out how much extra these people would add to the budget because when discussing this with my friends a few seem interested but they wonder how much it would cost. So far i've been throwing a number out based on the assumption that each additional person would cost about half as much as each of the first two people. I hope this clears up my question. Thanks to those of you who have already replied, I appreciate all the input.
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Old 11-02-2008, 22:45   #6
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Originally Posted by Sunspot Baby View Post

Don’t get into the flap about becoming a charter if guests contribute to costs. There are threads here on that and at least in the US it has been clearly established that cost sharing is not chartering.
Its not that I don't believe you, its that I hear just the opposite from the USCG. If a person contributes to costs then they become a passenger for hire by law. It's clearly defined in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR's) on what defines a passenger and contributing not just money but anything constitutes a charter. Do you have any references that say otherwise? The Coast Guard finding out is slim to none, unless there is an accident, a DUI or something unfortunate happens which leads to a Coast Guard investigation.

Sorry if I sound like a stick in the mud but it is something worth considering if you are going to have people contributing to help defer your costs.

From 46 CFR:
Passenger-for-hire means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on a vessel whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator agent or any other person having an interest in the vessel.

People have tried all sorts of creative ways of getting around this law and many cases have gone to court. Each time the law is upheld.
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Old 12-02-2008, 04:45   #7
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David, where did you here this from the USCG?

Chapman’s says "Until 1993 there was considerable ambiguity over who was a paying passenger and who was simply a guest politely offering to share the cost of a day on the water. New definitions published in Congressional Record S-16963 clarify the situation with unambiguous definitions.”

It goes on to say “Consideration means an economic benefit, inducement or profit (including a payment of money_ accruing to the owner of the vessel. It specifically excludes the voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverages or other supplies.”

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Old 12-02-2008, 04:53   #8
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Sorry, I should have added, that the dividing line seems to be guests voluntarily sharing expenses, or payment made as a condition of passage.

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Old 12-02-2008, 05:12   #9
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Mustang, I was thinking of fairly long term guests, not a day sail.

I have a problem asking my friends to chip in for maintenance, boat insurance, or other mostly fixed expenses that I would incur whether they were there or not.

Guests have joined us for several weeks on our cruises. They have asked ahead of time what it costs; sometimes thinking I might want them to share boat expenses. They are always pleased with our “normal” arrangement.

What we do, is give one of the guests a small notebook and ask them to track what everyone spends for consumables. At the end of the period, they add up what each couple (or person) spent. Since we all sort of keep a running total in our head and try to not get to far from even, at the end of the stay, we are usually pretty close. If there is a big difference, then a little cash might change hands. Putting the control in their hands makes sure they aren’t chipping in on normal boat expenses, just what we use. No one feels this is payment as a condition of passage.

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Old 12-02-2008, 05:21   #10
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As George indicates; you are allowed to voluntarily share cruising expenses, but cannot make payment mandatory.

SEC. 506. PASSENGER FOR HIRE.
Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (21) and (22) a new paragraph (21a) to read as follows:

"(21a) 'passenger for hire' means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.".


SEC. 507. CONSIDERATION.
Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (5) and (6) a new paragraph (5a) to read as follows:

"(5a) 'consideration' means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.". Additionally, employees or business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment purposes is not included as exchange of consideration.
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Old 12-02-2008, 07:07   #11
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I have had my friends, and family join me many times. All I have ever asked for is some help with the food, buy your own booze. They are going to eat no matter where there are, so they might as well be prepared to help with the food just as if they were on land.

I take care of all things such as fuel, maintaining the boat. If they want to hand me wrench that is acceptable....lololol, and anything else that would be of cost to keep the boat running wether, or not they are there.

As we are travelling I teach them everything that is going on. Let them stand a watch if we travel over night. I explain as well as I am capable how things work. I let them drive, and maintain some responsibilty of the boats progress. This is not mandatory, but an experience.

My point being that all you need to figure in is what is consumed. Everybody buys groceries, so it can be too hard to figure out what should be contributed.

When I asked a friend to help me get from the Caribbean to Florida. He paid for absolutely nothing, except for his booze, and trinkets along the way. He did get 6 weeks of sailing, exploring, sightseeing in new countries. In return I got an extra watch, and extra pair of hands when something broke, and his input on how to fix it.

Plus this guy would cook in any weather. I would have been happy with crackers, and cheese. Jim stood in the galley pounding chicken, making fresh spaghetti sauce for chicken parmesean. Not to mention the fresh french bread to go with it.

Best wishes in your upcoming adventure.................
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:45   #12
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"(5a) 'consideration' means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.". Additionally, employees or business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment purposes is not included as exchange of consideration.
Thanks for the clarification Gordon.
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Old 12-02-2008, 14:08   #13
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Thanks everyone for the info. It sounds like the consensus is that food and alcohol are about the only significant things that go up as you get more people onboard. Thanks again.
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