Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 27-02-2015, 10:05   #46
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Blowing Rock
Boat: San Juan 24
Posts: 66
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

I'm actively boat shopping for coastal cruiser in the 30-35 foot range and $20-60k. That means they are all 30 years old or older. I don't want a project and will gladly pay for excellent condition. If I can't check out the systems and hear the engine run and see the sails, I certainly am not going to make an offer. Some of the opinions expressed on this thread do concern me. If most sales are handled by brokers and brokers are like most described, I can understand why boats stay unsold for so long. As a former car dealer, I welcomed "tire kickers" and expected my sales people to have the skills to turn them into buyers. Boats, I know, are different... similar to motorcycles actually: no motorcycle dealer is going to let just any sport bike buyer take out that kind of bike and the same is true for most motorcycle sales. You buy, you ride, you don't like, we tear up the papers. For me, I'm not making an offer on a boat before I know it's the one I want and the only question is does it perform as it should. The process described by O'Reilly seems reasonable... with the understanding that if there are reason for any given point to be negotiated, it will be. Note the difference in attitude and practices expressed by those who have sold their own boat and/or bought from individuals. Completely different from the brokered boat experience. I've bought a new cruiser and an old racer, both from dealership and neither resembled anything so far discussed... but that was 25+ years ago. So far I've narrowed by search to six boats. I've talked to only one broker about a boat I was totally unfamiliar with, a Niagara 31, and found him more focused on his qualification to sell me something than to advise me on the Niagara. Maybe I should focus on FSBO??
__________________

__________________
TanzerTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 10:13   #47
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 399
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

broker are licensed by the state. I would lodge a formal complaint
__________________

__________________
bsurvey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 10:20   #48
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,363
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piney View Post
Today I was about to make an offer on a 32 foot sailboat ($40K range) when the seller's broker told me there would be a $125 charge for a sea trial after the offer was accepted.. What the ??? I will pay for my own surveyor but I will NEVER pay for a sea trial, so needless to say, the broker lost out on any possible commission.

Anyone else ever run into this?
That's a big NO F'ing WAY!
Tell the broker you don't need him on the trial. IF it's the owner... walk away.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 10:28   #49
Registered User
 
nimblemotors's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sacramento, California
Boat: Solar 40ft Cat :)
Posts: 1,557
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

Funny that, I went to look at a motorhome and they wanted $20 'for gas'
to start it up and take it for a test drive, only told me after I drove all the way out to see it . Said good luck, and left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piney View Post
$125 isn't really a lot, its more about principle. It would be like me putting a car for sale up on craigslist, then charging every prospective buyer $20 for a test drive. They would tell me to get bent.. lol!

Seems like a good, honest, hard working broker that knows how to use modern technology like computers and email, and has a least some resemblance of courtesy could make a fortune in this environment while putting the lazy, old school, bottom feeders out of business.
__________________
JackB
MiniMPPT Solar Controller
nimblemotors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 10:41   #50
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 4,033
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

Quote:
Originally Posted by TanzerTom View Post
I'm actively boat shopping for coastal cruiser in the 30-35 foot range and $20-60k. That means they are all 30 years old or older. I don't want a project and will gladly pay for excellent condition. If I can't check out the systems and hear the engine run and see the sails, I certainly am not going to make an offer. Some of the opinions expressed on this thread do concern me. If most sales are handled by brokers and brokers are like most described, I can understand why boats stay unsold for so long.
...
The process described by O'Reilly seems reasonable... with the understanding that if there are reason for any given point to be negotiated, it will be. Note the difference in attitude and practices expressed by those who have sold their own boat and/or bought from individuals. Completely different from the brokered boat experience.
I wouldn't be put off Tom. At your (our ) price range you'll more likely be dealing with actual owners than brokers. Commissions will be pretty small at that price, which is another reason why it's better to deal with owner/sellers. I don't mean to dis brokers. Most do a good job, some are excellent, and a few are useless; kinda like all professionals. But they are running a business. They may not be able to afford to spend the time I want them too, which is why I like to deal with the actual seller.

BTW, everything is negotiable. You can ask for anything as part of the sale agreement. The seller doesn't have to agree, but you can certainly ask. If you want a test sail, go ahead and ask. Maybe the seller will ask for a small fee, maybe not. I find that reasonable people can usually come to reasonable agreements. It's the unreasonable ones that spoil it for all of us (and create jaded brokers who see most people as tire-kickers ).
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 11:02   #51
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Akron, Ohio
Boat: Bristol 29(1967)
Posts: 595
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

Keep in mind this is the broker. He/she is doing this to make money and time is money. I can't blame the "broker", for wanting paid for this added service. Maybe the seller, if you truly are a serious looker, might pay half of the sea trial fee and ADDITIONALLY take your half of that fee into consideration with the price.

The "seller", the actual person who wants someone to buy his boat, should give you a free sea-trial if he/she is really serious about getting rid of it ...
__________________
SURV69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 11:05   #52
Registered User
 
cajucito's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Tipperary & Dublin Ireland
Boat: Beneteau 44cc
Posts: 83
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

Not unreasonable to ask for a fee as long as it goes as part payment if the deal goes thru. You can understand that the brokers will spend a lot of time taking a lot of people on 'Fun days out' otherwise. I had many sea trials when buying, but was never asked to pay for any of them but if a broker asked me to cover the cost of his time aboard I would not have objected.
__________________
cajucito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 11:48   #53
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,059
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

I hadn't followed all the posts. I would inform the seller if you can. The broker sounds like he/she are trying to make it on both ends?
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 11:58   #54
Registered User
 
denverd0n's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,952
Images: 6
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

Quote:
Originally Posted by TanzerTom View Post
The process described by O'Reilly seems reasonable... with the understanding that if there are reason for any given point to be negotiated, it will be.
The usual contract here in Florida says that the purchase is "subject to survey and sea trial" and that acceptance is "at the sole discretion of the buyer." What that means is that, as the buyer, after the survey and sea trial, I can choose to cancel the sale if anything at all turns up that I don't like. Anything at all. Or--what happens more often--if something turns up that changes my perception of the value of the boat then I can renegotiate.

Of course, if I choose to cancel the sale, or want to renegotiate and the owner wont, then I'm out the cost of the haul-out and survey, as well as all my time. Meanwhile, the owner and/or broker are out the time spent on the sea trial. Everybody has a little skin in the game, so everybody has some incentive to see the deal go through. Most of the time, once you get to this point, the deal does go through, but sometimes it does not.

If you do not choose to cancel the sale, or renegotiate, then you accept the results of the survey/sea-trial and the deal goes through. So, bottom line is that the negotiation points are pretty well defined. First, obviously, during the initial offer and acceptance of the purchase contract. Then again after the survey and sea trial. After that the deal has either been cancelled, or you are legally obligated to complete the sale as per the contract.
__________________
denverd0n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 12:59   #55
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,059
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
The usual contract here in Florida says that the purchase is "subject to survey and sea trial" and that acceptance is "at the sole discretion of the buyer." What that means is that, as the buyer, after the survey and sea trial, I can choose to cancel the sale if anything at all turns up that I don't like. Anything at all. Or--what happens more often--if something turns up that changes my perception of the value of the boat then I can renegotiate.

Of course, if I choose to cancel the sale, or want to renegotiate and the owner wont, then I'm out the cost of the haul-out and survey, as well as all my time. Meanwhile, the owner and/or broker are out the time spent on the sea trial. Everybody has a little skin in the game, so everybody has some incentive to see the deal go through. Most of the time, once you get to this point, the deal does go through, but sometimes it does not.

If you do not choose to cancel the sale, or renegotiate, then you accept the results of the survey/sea-trial and the deal goes through. So, bottom line is that the negotiation points are pretty well defined. First, obviously, during the initial offer and acceptance of the purchase contract. Then again after the survey and sea trial. After that the deal has either been cancelled, or you are legally obligated to complete the sale as per the contract.
The sea trial seems like the time at the auto dealership for a test drive.

A salesman needs to be prepared for win a few lose a few. Not we can tool around the block if you pay me. Especially if a offer has been made.

Just sounds like double dipping.
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 13:23   #56
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,454
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

A couple of thoughts:

How many advice to newbie posts have said something like: "go look at as many different boats as you can BEFORE you decide what to buy?" This buyer will sure look like a tire-kicker to a broker, but in the long run he will likely buy a boat. How should a broker deal with these sorts of customers?

In many boats the sail inventory represents a big chunk of the value of the boat. The only way to properly evaluate the condition of the sails is to USE them... looking at a corner sticking out of a sail bag isn't very informative (don't ask me how I know this!). A full sea trial should include hoisting every sail in the inventory IMO, even if the wind conditions are not typical of how you would use that sail. Mostly brokers don't want to deal with things like that... you need owner interaction.

In general, I think that experienced brokers can tell in a few minutes if one is a serious buyer. This does not mean he can tell if you will buy the specific boat under discussion, but that you will indeed buy some boat in the near future. If he is a busy broker (and this varies a whole lot) he may dismiss the casual looker. An astute and less busy broker will try to be the one who eventually sells the casual looker a boat... I think this is called salesmanship, or perhaps "work", for this is really the broker's job. Not so many are willing to put in the time and effort.

I've bought and sold boats both ways. A good broker can make it easier and pleasanter, but dealing with a motivated owner directly usually means a more researched decision on your part.

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 14:18   #57
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 4,669
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

Sea trial after a 10% deposit is the standard way. Too many people out there looking for a free boat ride.

I agree the broker should take the time to show the boat, answer questions and even start the engine without a deposit.
__________________
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 15:08   #58
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,312
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

Quote:
Originally Posted by onestepcsy37 View Post
My big problem with brokers, at least here in Florida, is that they won't run the engine unless you make an offer/deposit. Given that the engine may be the most expensive part to replace, how can I make an offer?
If that is all that is holding you back you make your offer contingent on the engine checking out. Up here in the frozen wastelands all boats that go under contract during the winter have a bunch of like items for later when they can be checked/tested.
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 15:16   #59
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Blowing Rock
Boat: San Juan 24
Posts: 66
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
A couple of thoughts:

How many advice to newbie posts have said something like: "go look at as many different boats as you can BEFORE you decide what to buy?" This buyer will sure look like a tire-kicker to a broker, but in the long run he will likely buy a boat. How should a broker deal with these sorts of customers?

In many boats the sail inventory represents a big chunk of the value of the boat. The only way to properly evaluate the condition of the sails is to USE them... looking at a corner sticking out of a sail bag isn't very informative (don't ask me how I know this!). A full sea trial should include hoisting every sail in the inventory IMO, even if the wind conditions are not typical of how you would use that sail. Mostly brokers don't want to deal with things like that... you need owner interaction.

In general, I think that experienced brokers can tell in a few minutes if one is a serious buyer. This does not mean he can tell if you will buy the specific boat under discussion, but that you will indeed buy some boat in the near future. If he is a busy broker (and this varies a whole lot) he may dismiss the casual looker. An astute and less busy broker will try to be the one who eventually sells the casual looker a boat... I think this is called salesmanship, or perhaps "work", for this is really the broker's job. Not so many are willing to put in the time and effort.

I've bought and sold boats both ways. A good broker can make it easier and pleasanter, but dealing with a motivated owner directly usually means a more researched decision on your part.

Cheers,

Jim
Well put. I understand boats and cars are very different animals, but for the typical car dealer, getting the customer to "fall in love" with the car is a early step in the process. QUALIFYING the customer, however, comes first. If a broker is poor at this, which apparently is often the case according to the comments, he will never get to the "fall in love" part. For me, with sail boats, this is critical! If I can't even start the motor or see "under the hood"... no love. Perhaps there is a consulting opportunity here for some enterprising individual to sell professional selling concepts to the yacht brokerage community?? All parties would benefit.
__________________
TanzerTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 15:28   #60
Registered User
 
jkindredpdx's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35'
Posts: 1,047
Images: 5
Re: Broker charging for a sea trial??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
There are two sides to this coin.

I modified a purchase agreement I found on the net. Basically spells out the whole process. A serious buyer will look through the boat and decide to make an offer. They put down a down-payment before sea trial and survey. If the boat is purchased fine.

If the survey shows up anything that needs negotiating then there is a negotiation. If the negotiation breaks down - based on survey items the deposit is refunded.

If the seller just doesn't like the boat the deposit is kept up to a max amount. It may sound harsh but I am not a used car dealership, my time has value and there are no shortage of people who would like to "test drive" a lot of boats.

A fee not included if an offer is made and accepted sounds a bit crazy.
That's almost how mine went. Offer with refundable earnest money contingent on sea trial and survey, seller accepts and is responsible for providing sea trial, I paid for haul out and survey, deal done, they took us out for Mexican food dinner
__________________

__________________
http://www.sednahr35.blogspot.com/ Jim K.
jkindredpdx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
charging

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Broker or no broker, that is the question. paulandharm Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 7 21-02-2013 18:36
'Do-it-yourself yacht broker' Never pay a broker again! Jort Vendor Spotlight - Great Deals for CF Members! 5 24-01-2013 10:40
If it's Better to Buy Through a Broker-to-Broker Arrangement, I Need a Broker YesIsail Multihull Sailboats 4 14-11-2011 10:00
Broker or No Broker ? Nick & LA Multihull Sailboats 12 10-05-2010 07:29
Broker or No Broker dingoman General Sailing Forum 8 26-02-2010 14:23



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:40.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.