Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-01-2015, 23:42   #31
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

This article uses a fin keel spade rudder boat where he removed the rudder for the test. Basically running the drogue lines up to the midships on either side was important to make it work well.


A Guide to Steering without a Rudder: Methods and Equipment Tested >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News
__________________

__________________
cal40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 03:22   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia.
Posts: 170
Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Here's some internet story telling:

A friend of ours, a retired Naval officer and very experienced yottie was crew on a Bavaria 36 a few years back. They set out from Cairns, Qld and exited the Great Barrier reef nearby. A day later, the entire blade of the spade rudder disintegrated, leaving only the post and some webbing behind. He claims, and I see no reason to doubt him, that they were able to steer adequately using a drogue streamed from a bridle to the cockpit winches. This setup allowed them to crank the drogue to one side or the other, and combined with using only a headsail (and being fortunate that the course required was downwind) they successfully came back through the pass that they had exited and returned to Cairns.

I was somewhat incredulous when he related the story, but he had some photos of the damaged rudder remains and the fact that they did get her back to corroborate his account... and he's not a BS kinda guy IMO.

So, to some extent, it may indeed be possible to successfully steer a rudderless fin keeled modern boat. I dunno... I wasn't there, but I think I believe him. I doubt if it is always possible.

Going to windward might be a bit more difficult!

Jim

Jim I was there but luckily on another boat.

I was in a Bluewater 42 (with a nut job skipper) sailing 100 to 200 meters away from those "experienced navy guys" before they snapped their rudder off.

What we observed was they were attempting to race us and really didn't seem to have a clue about sail trim because they had so much weather helm you could see them straining at the wheel to hold course for miles. We smugly predicted rudder trouble due to insane weather helm and sure enough they snapped their rudder off. Fortunately we were not around to see it happen or we would have had to assist them. They certainly didn't look like good sailors from our point of view we were pretty sure they had no idea.

I think it was more like a 42 Bavaria. They were probably no more than 4 or 5 hours into a 500 mile Coral Sea crossing heading to the Louisiades with the 2011? Louisiades Rally.

They did well to sail back on drogue though.
__________________

__________________
giant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 04:33   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,915
Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Quote:
Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
This article uses a fin keel spade rudder boat where he removed the rudder for the test. Basically running the drogue lines up to the midships on either side was important to make it work well.


A Guide to Steering without a Rudder: Methods and Equipment Tested >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News
Very interesting vid, thanks for that
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 05:15   #34
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,449
Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
By the way, the only racers that hold their boat in any position, or back up (other than out of a slip or maneuvering in tight quarters), are dinghy racers, where acceleration is less of an issue. In big boats you hit the line going full speed or close to it, having timed your approach.
Actually, it's done all the time in catamaran racing especially when you have 20 plus boats and a short line. If you don't get a spot on the line, you are already in second place and following at the start.

Also, here is an example of holding the boat steady during a race start in big boat racing. It even appears Spithill may have backed up but that's up to the viewer:

__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 11:45   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Halifax
Posts: 435
Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Actually, it's done all the time in catamaran racing especially when you have 20 plus boats and a short line. If you don't get a spot on the line, you are already in second place and following at the start.
We do that match racing J24's and 29's. Starts are an absolute blast.
__________________
Brob2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 11:53   #36
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Quote:
What many seem to overlook, is the importance of the sail plan... Absent a rudder, it's far better to be 'pulled' along, rather than being 'pushed'... The ability to configure some variation of a twizzle rig would be hugely beneficial, really the key to the whole deal, and one reason why a second downwind pole, and a "downwind staysail", could be worth their weight in gold...

hmmm, in my experience, even with fairly length keels, ( full with cutaway forefoot) is extremely difficult to sail with the rudder missing as opposed to just locked, downwind is about the only direction it can be made to work

( and that is " pushed " by the way)

I found the drogue idea, works with a locked rudder, we did have the experience of towing a yacht with a missing rudder and no amour of drogues could stop her slewing all over the place.


I remain to be convinced in anything other then idea circumstances it can be jury rigged successfully
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 11:58   #37
Registered User
 
Suijin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Annapolis MD; currently in Oriental NC
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 2,878
Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Actually, it's done all the time in catamaran racing especially when you have 20 plus boats and a short line. If you don't get a spot on the line, you are already in second place and following at the start.

Also, here is an example of holding the boat steady during a race start in big boat racing. It even appears Spithill may have backed up but that's up to the viewer:

That's match racing it doesn't count!

But I stand corrected.
__________________
Suijin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 12:06   #38
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Very interesting vid, thanks for that

I find that whole video very unbelievable. I mean whats demonstrated is in virtual mirror calm

Secondly they suggest tying it amidships, again I find that hard to understand, The whole point is to prevent the stern swinging, I mean you can see the issues if you tow anyone, from the stern quarters

I find it very counter intuitive and hard to accept.
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 12:14   #39
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,961
Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I find that whole video very unbelievable. I mean whats demonstrated is in virtual mirror calm

Secondly they suggest tying it amidships, again I find that hard to understand, The whole point is to prevent the stern swinging, I mean you can see the issues if you tow anyone, from the stern quarters

I find it very counter intuitive and hard to accept.
gbn -- what's your take on that Sweden 39 using a warp/drogue to run downwind for 2000+ miles? No Galerider or purpose-built drogue -- just a bridle, long lines, an anchor, fenders, chain, etc. Interesting how they would sometimes back one of their headsails to keep the boat off the wind. Never read the conclusion, but it also sounded like a small part of their rudder was actually left after the bulk of it broke off.
__________________
Exile is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 12:30   #40
Registered User
 
FecklessDolphin's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tortola
Boat: Morris Justine 36'
Posts: 145
Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
Notice the only example he gives of (heroically) sailing without a rudder is down wind.

It can be done to windward, and you can even tack as he mentions, but that is in moderate conditions. The Cape Verde islands are right in the trades, and this time of year they are blowing good and steady. Making progress upwind, in the kind of swell you see out there, without a rudder, is one of those things that is theoretically possible, but in practice so exhausting as to be beyond the capabilities of any shorthanded crew. Yeah on a race boat, where you have 8-12 people, it a bit more possible. And I honestly don't think it's all that easier in a full keep boat although I can't speak from experience.

Every ocean race, by the Offshore Safety Requirements (OSR), requires the boat to have devised and practiced a means of steering the boat in the event of rudder loss. I've worked through multiple approaches and practiced it various ways. You demonstrate it to the satisfaction of the safety committee, but the truth of the matter is that most ocean races are reaching or downwind races, and everyone, including the safety inspectors, admit that your right hosed if you find yourself in challenging conditions.

By the way, the only racers that hold their boat in any position, or back up (other than out of a slip or maneuvering in tight quarters), are dinghy racers, where acceleration is less of an issue. In big boats you hit the line going full speed or close to it, having timed your approach. There is jockeying at the line (and it can be rather unnerving to be close hauled in 15 knots of wind, sandwiched between two Navy 44's, with less than six feet between gunwales), trying to force others over early, but you're sailing with the pedal down if it's blowing.
We regularly back down (sail backwards) for 10 yds or so just before the start of races to get weeds off the keel. Helps to drop the jib and someone pushes boom out. The the trick is to not upset the crew with an accidental jibe when trying to get going the right way again while your orientation is still backwards.
__________________
FecklessDolphin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 12:38   #41
Registered User
 
Suijin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Annapolis MD; currently in Oriental NC
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 2,878
Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Secondly they suggest tying it amidships, again I find that hard to understand, The whole point is to prevent the stern swinging, I mean you can see the issues if you tow anyone, from the stern quarters.
The whole point is to steer the boat, in which case the closer the lines are to the pivot point of the boat, the more effective it is. And when you're towing a boat from the stern quarters, that's when it's most difficult to actually steer your own boat.

If you're deploying a drogue for the purposes of keeping the boat oriented at a certain angle that's one thing, but for actual steering purposes, amidships is far more effective.
__________________
Suijin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 13:09   #42
Registered User
 
Sailor_Hutch's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Dreaming - through the bars to the Chesapeake... Land cabin: near Raleigh, North Carolina
Posts: 461
Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Quote:
Two spinnaker sheets were used. The sheets were led as two sides of a bridle (port and starboard) from amidships and clipped into the swivel at the lead for the drogue. The tails were lead aft to the primaries in the cockpit.

From Michael Keyworth, Guide to steering without a rudder.
Wow, is this ever a good post to copy into the keeper bin. Thanks!! Wonder why this is not automatic knowledge for boat people. Does seem a little different than regular drogue setup tho...
__________________
Sailor_Hutch was born for water. His 130 pounds, well insulated, floats like a bouy. With webbed paws, he gracefully paddles - The Umbrella Man.
Sailor_Hutch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 21:04   #43
Registered User

Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 55
Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

A common mode of failure rudder failure is the connection between the post and rudder blade failing internally. Incorporating a means to tie lines to the trailing edge beforehand will enable the boat to be steered with emergency lines led from cockpit winches or the like. Works best at reasonably low latitudes as it requires a brief dip. I epoxied a Wichard eyebolt into mine, on a Cabot 36, somewhat notorious for this problem. (P.O. said he rebuilt the rudder and I tend to believe him. Still.) It's unlikely a skeg hung rudder would disappear entirely as a spade rudder might.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Vivid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 22:21   #44
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,198
Images: 52
Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Here's some internet story telling:

A friend of ours, a retired Naval officer and very experienced yottie was crew on a Bavaria 36 a few years back. They set out from Cairns, Qld and exited the Great Barrier reef nearby. A day later, the entire blade of the spade rudder disintegrated, leaving only the post and some webbing behind. He claims, and I see no reason to doubt him, that they were able to steer adequately using a drogue streamed from a bridle to the cockpit winches. This setup allowed them to crank the drogue to one side or the other, and combined with using only a headsail (and being fortunate that the course required was downwind) they successfully came back through the pass that they had exited and returned to Cairns.

I was somewhat incredulous when he related the story, but he had some photos of the damaged rudder remains and the fact that they did get her back to corroborate his account... and he's not a BS kinda guy IMO.

So, to some extent, it may indeed be possible to successfully steer a rudderless fin keeled modern boat. I dunno... I wasn't there, but I think I believe him. I doubt if it is always possible.

Going to windward might be a bit more difficult!

Jim


The simple version.
Attached Images
 
__________________

__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
atlantic crossing, lost

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Atlantic Crossing - 22ft. E Boat e-minor General Sailing Forum 31 25-05-2012 14:35
I Need Some Help - Boat for Atlantic Crossing atlantic cruise Meets & Greets 7 11-06-2011 15:30
Lost Thrust! Lost Prop? OffSeason Monohull Sailboats 20 07-06-2009 00:57
First Atlantic crossing with a solar boat Andy R Cruising News & Events 24 19-04-2008 05:46
Crossing the Atlantic Ocean by pedal power; support boat needed. synchronicity Atlantic & the Caribbean 0 27-02-2008 08:52



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:11.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.