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Old 14-01-2015, 16:41   #16
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I'm not sure how to find that page but steering a fin keel boat with the rudder gone in moderate seas is anything but a cake walk. My personal view is if you don't have a spare/emergency rudder then it is a really big problem. Its one thing to lock your rudder and steer with the sails or play with it in protected waters but you really need a working rudder when you are doing long distant offshore passage making.
As I mentioned above, I've heard it's very hard with a fin keeled boat. Colgate (and I) was speaking of experiences on full keeled boats.

To find the page click on the link and go to the bottom of page 106.

Racers do many things with sailboats that cruisers do not and one is sailing without a rudder. Another is backing up. Another is holding the boat on the starting line in as much as 20 knot winds without crossing or hitting the boat on either side of you for sometimes 2 minutes. Not to mention tons of tacks and gybes in tight quarters at high speeds.

Btw my posts concerning sailing without a rudder were in answer to other posters. I don't pretend to be trying to say what the people on this vessel should have or should not have done in their situation. That is/was totally their call.

I also mentioned that the sea and wind conditions may dictate the direction you sail if sailing without a rudder.
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Old 14-01-2015, 16:45   #17
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
As I mentioned above, I've heard it's very hard with a fin keeled boat. Colgate and I both are speaking of experiences on full keeled boats.

To find the page click on the link and go to page 106.

Racers do many things with sailboats that cruisers do not and one is sailing without a rudder. Another is backing up. Not to mention tons of tacks and gybes.

I also mentioned that the sea and wind conditions may dictate the direction you sail if sailing without a rudder.
Well I will be the first person to take my hat off to a sailor that can sail his fin keeled boat offshore without a rudder and actually go where he wants to. I have done my fair share of racing over the years and I can't do it but hey as I said I will bow to the guy/gal who can!!
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Old 14-01-2015, 17:04   #18
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Well I will be the first person to take my hat off to a sailor that can sail his fin keeled boat offshore without a rudder and actually go where he wants to. I have done my fair share of racing over the years and I can't do it but hey as I said I will bow to the guy/gal who can!!
Like I said before, I was speaking of full keeled boats.

The decision to buy a fin keeled boat for cruising is that of the owner/sailor.

It has been debated on this forum many times fin vs full keel.

Some say the full keel boats are totally obsolete, slow, narrow etc, but in actually, they are very seaworthy and CAN be sailed without a rudder.
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Old 14-01-2015, 17:05   #19
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

This is seaventure , a C&C 38 land fall , Andreas the owner is a real cool guy, i make a new mast for this guys plus lots of repairs in their boat before they set in a RTW,
i warn Andreas about the rudder and few other things but nevermind they set sail from SXM to the South of the island chain.


Rudder snap off i think in the way to Guadaloupe, well they made a emergency rudder and sail to guadaloupe with that thing...


Worth to see their blog, Young dudes doing what they want to do..







http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...Jf0rs1hKA1xH5g
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Old 14-01-2015, 18:32   #20
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Great video. Desmond Dekker plus beer gets the job done!
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Old 14-01-2015, 18:52   #21
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I'm not sure how to find that page but steering a fin keel boat with the rudder gone in moderate seas is anything but a cake walk. My personal view is if you don't have a spare/emergency rudder then it is a really big problem. Its one thing to lock your rudder and steer with the sails or play with it in protected waters but you really need a working rudder when you are doing long distant offshore passage making.
Here's some internet story telling:

A friend of ours, a retired Naval officer and very experienced yottie was crew on a Bavaria 36 a few years back. They set out from Cairns, Qld and exited the Great Barrier reef nearby. A day later, the entire blade of the spade rudder disintegrated, leaving only the post and some webbing behind. He claims, and I see no reason to doubt him, that they were able to steer adequately using a drogue streamed from a bridle to the cockpit winches. This setup allowed them to crank the drogue to one side or the other, and combined with using only a headsail (and being fortunate that the course required was downwind) they successfully came back through the pass that they had exited and returned to Cairns.

I was somewhat incredulous when he related the story, but he had some photos of the damaged rudder remains and the fact that they did get her back to corroborate his account... and he's not a BS kinda guy IMO.

So, to some extent, it may indeed be possible to successfully steer a rudderless fin keeled modern boat. I dunno... I wasn't there, but I think I believe him. I doubt if it is always possible.

Going to windward might be a bit more difficult!

Jim
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Old 14-01-2015, 19:16   #22
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

I think it is possible too Jim. I have read accounts of people doing it. However you don't mention how much of a crew they had. In the video posted it took 3 strong, young men to steer their boat with a board on the spinnaker pole. That was after being towed into port and it doesn't show how the boat was propelled with the makeshift rudder. Was it being towed or driven by sail or engine. That boat also had a partial skeg, which would help. It is possible, but very difficult. Probably not in the realm of possibility for a man/woman crew of two.
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Old 14-01-2015, 19:24   #23
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

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i better think how this works on cat. 2 rudders help. If 1 goes the other should still be able to be manually steered.

If both go,.... motors can be used but after run out of petrol.... i have to think.

maybe balance: run 1 motor and sails.

in bad conditions probably not much good.
A drogue and an adjustable bridle. Should work on a mono too.
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Old 14-01-2015, 20:14   #24
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

I heard of rudder losses a couple of times and I always wondered if you could rig something up with the dinghy motor. Of course it would only work until you ran out of fuel for it. If you aren't too far out, it might be enough to get you close enough for a tow.

It might be a silly idea, but I always wondered.
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Old 14-01-2015, 20:30   #25
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

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However you don't mention how much of a crew they had.
Three "mature" (AKA old farts) gentlemen were the crew. And no great feats of strength were required for this setup. A few cranks on a winch to move the "rudder" from side to side.

I can see this working in the open ocean downwind, but they had a lot of courage to attempt the passage through the reef IMO. J. Cook would have been proud of them!

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Old 14-01-2015, 20:41   #26
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Racers do many things with sailboats that cruisers do not and one is sailing without a rudder. Another is backing up. Another is holding the boat on the starting line in as much as 20 knot winds without crossing or hitting the boat on either side of you for sometimes 2 minutes. Not to mention tons of tacks and gybes in tight quarters at high speeds.

Btw my posts concerning sailing without a rudder were in answer to other posters. I don't pretend to be trying to say what the people on this vessel should have or should not have done in their situation. That is/was totally their call.

I also mentioned that the sea and wind conditions may dictate the direction you sail if sailing without a rudder.
Notice the only example he gives of (heroically) sailing without a rudder is down wind.

It can be done to windward, and you can even tack as he mentions, but that is in moderate conditions. The Cape Verde islands are right in the trades, and this time of year they are blowing good and steady. Making progress upwind, in the kind of swell you see out there, without a rudder, is one of those things that is theoretically possible, but in practice so exhausting as to be beyond the capabilities of any shorthanded crew. Yeah on a race boat, where you have 8-12 people, it a bit more possible. And I honestly don't think it's all that easier in a full keep boat although I can't speak from experience.

Every ocean race, by the Offshore Safety Requirements (OSR), requires the boat to have devised and practiced a means of steering the boat in the event of rudder loss. I've worked through multiple approaches and practiced it various ways. You demonstrate it to the satisfaction of the safety committee, but the truth of the matter is that most ocean races are reaching or downwind races, and everyone, including the safety inspectors, admit that your right hosed if you find yourself in challenging conditions.

By the way, the only racers that hold their boat in any position, or back up (other than out of a slip or maneuvering in tight quarters), are dinghy racers, where acceleration is less of an issue. In big boats you hit the line going full speed or close to it, having timed your approach. There is jockeying at the line (and it can be rather unnerving to be close hauled in 15 knots of wind, sandwiched between two Navy 44's, with less than six feet between gunwales), trying to force others over early, but you're sailing with the pedal down if it's blowing.
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Old 14-01-2015, 20:47   #27
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Here's some internet story telling:

A friend of ours, a retired Naval officer and very experienced yottie was crew on a Bavaria 36 a few years back. They set out from Cairns, Qld and exited the Great Barrier reef nearby. A day later, the entire blade of the spade rudder disintegrated, leaving only the post and some webbing behind. He claims, and I see no reason to doubt him, that they were able to steer adequately using a drogue streamed from a bridle to the cockpit winches. This setup allowed them to crank the drogue to one side or the other, and combined with using only a headsail (and being fortunate that the course required was downwind) they successfully came back through the pass that they had exited and returned to Cairns.
This is in fact the way to do it. It's even more effective if you run the bridle to snatch blocks at midships as it widens the lever and puts the forces closer to the pivot point of the boat. Going off the wind it works pretty well.

The whole warps and/or buckets approach also works a in a pinch but gives you far less control and a much narrower range of turning torque.
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Old 14-01-2015, 21:18   #28
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

Steering without a rudder?
Steering with a drogue?


Here is an article (PDF) that describes in detail tests done with a 44 foot yacht and provides tips on how to do it.

http://bermudarace.com/wp-content/up...t-a-Rudder.pdf
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Old 14-01-2015, 21:36   #29
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

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Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
Steering without a rudder?
Steering with a drogue?


Here is an article (PDF) that describes in detail tests done with a 44 foot yacht and provides tips on how to do it.

http://bermudarace.com/wp-content/up...t-a-Rudder.pdf
Hey! Really good stuff here... I wonder if an ad hoc drogue made up of "stuff" found on a cruising boat could be made to work as well? I don't at present carry a 30 inch Gale Rider...

This certainly lends credence to my friends claims... not that I really doubted him!

Jim
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Old 14-01-2015, 22:00   #30
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Re: Boat lost on Atlantic Crossing

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
I think it is possible too Jim. I have read accounts of people doing it. However you don't mention how much of a crew they had. In the video posted it took 3 strong, young men to steer their boat with a board on the spinnaker pole. That was after being towed into port and it doesn't show how the boat was propelled with the makeshift rudder. Was it being towed or driven by sail or engine. That boat also had a partial skeg, which would help. It is possible, but very difficult. Probably not in the realm of possibility for a man/woman crew of two.
Well, it certainly helps to have your ultimate destination downwind :-)

But a British couple aboard the Sweden 39 EGRET managed quite well a few years ago, when they lost their rudder fairly early on into their Transatlantic passage to the Caribbean... In a very impressive feat of seamanship, they still managed to cover 2200 NM in 26 days, roughly 1500 of those miles without a rudder, and hitting their original destination right on the nose...

What many seem to overlook, is the importance of the sail plan... Absent a rudder, it's far better to be 'pulled' along, rather than being 'pushed'... The ability to configure some variation of a twizzle rig would be hugely beneficial, really the key to the whole deal, and one reason why a second downwind pole, and a "downwind staysail", could be worth their weight in gold...



Too bad this story has never been more widely circulated. Exemplary seamanship, many lessons to be learned... This succession of rather matter-of-fact blog posts tells the tale:

26: Atlantic Adventure | Egret

27: A Directional Challenge | Egret

28. A Visit from Santa | Egret

29. Christmas at Sea | Egret

30. A Welcome Landfall | Egret
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