Blue Water Boats ........Again.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Cruiser2B

All those guys thinking a bigger boat is better should check out this guy and his theory and approach to offshore sailing vessels

thesimplesailor.com, he sails, has sailed in the northern latitudes of Atlantic Ocean and Baltic sea in a 21ft boat that I believe boatman61 also has...

Yeah, she's a 21' Corribee - albeit she has Junk Rig (IIRC that was a factory option! - gotta love the 70's )......me also had one (Bermudan Rig), sold many years ago and I still love her!............but I can firmly say that whilst a fine seaboat anyone who ventures as far North and Wide on a Corribee as Roger Taylor has with Ming Ming is not only a helluva sailor but also somewhat mental .

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Tell you what, Tom, why not remove your rudder and give your "heaving to" scheme a try in normal sea conditions and report back to us.

From my experience, you will not be able to achieve anything like being hove to and stopped without a rudder.

But then, I've never raced beach cats, so what do I know?

Jim

Okay, let's try this. Take a look at your rudder. Now take a look at your mainsail.

Your mainsail will out power your rudder easily. Let's say all your sails are down and you are being blown hard by a 20 knot wind. You turn the rudder to point into the wind. What happens? Probably not much.

Now, raise that main sail only. Sheet it in all the way. Your boat will immediately swing toward the wind. Now try and come off the wind with your rudder and see what happens. You won't be able to turn downwind.....unless you ease the sheet.

This is what you learn from racing around 450 races in all types of wind on a beach cat.

Think of your rudder as a trim tab.

When I fly the simulators at work, each one has a rudder to control the yaw. That's nice but these aircraft (navy E-2 and C-2) have around a 5000hp engine on each wing. Trust me, if I shut off one of those engines the one that's still running will easily overcome anything the rudder does. Same on your sailboat.

Hey Blue Crab, I'm trying.

[barnakiel]

'Hove to' is not with a sea anchor off the bow, is it.

b.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

'Hove to' is not with a sea anchor off the bow, is it.

b.

It help in some conditions and for certain hull shapes , or in survival conditions to, lets say that Hove to with a sea anchor is another storm tactic to deal with sea and wind conditions , and without a rudder,, probably a sea anchor help to put the bow facing to waves allowing crew to set or reef sails properly , The Pardeys explain that tactic well in their book.....

Another isue to consider, large spade rudders are not hove to friendly, think in all the forces and presure in the rudder stock and the rudder itself, falling backwards from the top of a crest put a lot of presure in a spade rudder, just saying....

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I saw a post on the Luder 33 not long ago that said those type boats (classic full keel Cape Dory, Bristol, Contessa 26) are just better for ocean cruising. Is this a true statement?

I think we know what boat is right for you:

- a 1970s boat about 30' (builder should be out of business for at less 20 years now so the boat can claim "quality", and after all these boats for the most haven't been made in a long time)
- 8.5' beam
- full keel
- 3" thick hull (no one knew how to design strength back then so just went with mass)
- barn door rudder (but take it off as it doesn't steer worth crap and who needs it anyway, don't need no stupid rudder)
- no engine
- alcohol stove (tradition)
- random wood scarp coring under the screwed on teak deck (leakage helps keep interior cool)
- cast iron tanks that are really installed well because you aren't ever going to get able to get to them)
- cockpit about 2'x3' with 2 scuppers to hopefully drain it
- traveler in the cockpit
- boom about 5' height to you when standing in the cockpit
- 15# fisherman anchor with 50' total rode (because hey you can get in real close)
- small v-berth, that is for storage of food because you are going to be "out there" quite a while
-shower (it is for foul weather jacket because you aren't going to be able to use)
- bucket (no head) because the tank leaked and you couldn't get to it
- 3 can openers because they will be real important as you will have to open a lot of cans without any refrigeration

Now granted some of these these things I've just guessed at because they go with other items.

I want to encourage you to get this boat! That is how others get to move up after they sell the boat they don't like so they can buy a modern boat.

What is holding you back? I hope it isn't anyone on CFs approval.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Hey, I've got one of those!

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Okay, let's try this. Take a look at your rudder. Now take a look at your mainsail.

Your mainsail will out power your rudder easily. Let's say all your sails are down and you are being blown hard by a 20 knot wind. You turn the rudder to point into the wind. What happens? Probably not much.

Now, raise that main sail only. Sheet it in all the way. Your boat will immediately swing toward the wind. Now try and come off the wind with your rudder and see what happens. You won't be able to turn downwind.....unless you ease the sheet.

This is what you learn from racing around 450 races in all types of wind on a beach cat.

Think of your rudder as a trim tab.

When I fly the simulators at work, each one has a rudder to control the yaw. That's nice but these aircraft (navy E-2 and C-2) have around a 5000hp engine on each wing. Trust me, if I shut off one of those engines I can easily overcome anything the rudder does. Same on your sailboat.

Hey Blue Crab, I'm trying.

Hmmm...

Lots to consider here!

In our boat (not a beach cat) if lying with no sail up in 20 knots (btw, if you think that 20 knots is "blowing hard" perhaps it explains some of your other ideas) we would make several knots downwind. If I then "turn the rudder" something will indeed happen: she will respond to the helm and continue to make way until the wind is roughly on the beam. Then as she slows, the bow will blow down. Then the speed will increase again until she has some steerage and she will again head up.

With the full main sheeted hard in 20 knots true she will do around 6 knots at 40 degrees apparent, 6 to 7 knots on a close reach, less as she falls off further... but I can indeed steer her down without slacking the sheet... because I have a fairly powerful rudder. Loose the rudder and all bets are off.

This is what I have learned from sailing well over 100,000 miles in offshore cruising boats.

Tom, what I (and several others) have been trying to say is that your experience in beach cats does not really apply well to sailing keel boats offshore. Additionally your experience flying simulators has little relevance.

Unlike you, I have actually had to heave to in heavy weather far out to sea. My experience says that in my three offshore (fin keel, skeg rudder) boats this would not have been possible without a rudder. It is hard enough to maintain a stable hove to attitude with a functional rudder when the sea state is severe (F8-10+).

I have never experienced rudder loss, and hope to never do so. Should it happen, I will certainly try all the canonical means of steering, but I will not expect much control even under benign conditions, let alone in more taxing winds and seas.

Jim

[thomm225]

Thanks for the suggestion about the Luders , I appreciate it, but I was thinking since I already have enough boat in my Bristol 27 for now, I'd like to go for a Viper. (I do like the old boats though)

It's a little lighter than my NACRA F-17 but on the Viper you can sail it one up or two. So if the wife or friend doesn't show up for the race or the day sail you can still go and enjoy. Plus, you should be able to right it by yourself with no problem if you flip or pitchpole.

Also, these boats (this one weighs about 200-250 lbs) with the same sail area as my 6600lb Bristol 27 quickly teach you the power of each sail and each and every pull of any "string" onboard.

Performance Catamaran Sailing Viper F16 - YouTube

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Hey, I've got one of those!

Yea, I resemble that remark also,just what are you trying to say Don,that we sail around in primative,little ,tight ,skinny boats with thick hulls ?Well you are right, but, they arent that skinny,mines 9.5 and I think the Ludders a little wider,maybe..Your discrption sounds like a Kittiwake not the Ludders 33..

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Hmmm...

Lots to consider here!

In our boat (not a beach cat) if lying with no sail up in 20 knots (btw, if you think that 20 knots is "blowing hard" perhaps it explains some of your other ideas) we would make several knots downwind. If I then "turn the rudder" something will indeed happen: she will respond to the helm and continue to make way until the wind is roughly on the beam. Then as she slows, the bow will blow down. Then the speed will increase again until she has some steerage and she will again head up.

With the full main sheeted hard in 20 knots true she will do around 6 knots at 40 degrees apparent, 6 to 7 knots on a close reach, less as she falls off further... but I can indeed steer her down without slacking the sheet... because I have a fairly powerful rudder. Loose the rudder and all bets are off.

This is what I have learned from sailing well over 100,000 miles in offshore cruising boats.

Tom, what I (and several others) have been trying to say is that your experience in beach cats does not really apply well to sailing keel boats offshore. Additionally your experience flying simulators has little relevance.

Unlike you, I have actually had to heave to in heavy weather far out to sea. My experience says that in my three offshore (fin keel, skeg rudder) boats this would not have been possible without a rudder. It is hard enough to maintain a stable hove to attitude with a functional rudder when the sea state is severe (F8-10+).

I have never experienced rudder loss, and hope to never do so. Should it happen, I will certainly try all the canonical means of steering, but I will not expect much control even under benign conditions, let alone in more taxing winds and seas.

Jim

Your question was how would you keep the boat from pointing downwind with out the rudder. My answer was with the mainsail. Raise it, sheet it in. Now you are pointing into the wind.

As far as wind speed, jeez pick one. As long as your main is in one piece, the boat (a normal sloop rigged boat) will point to weather.

A 200lb beach cat in 20 knot winds with the sail area of a 6600 lb Bristol 27 is probably very similar to what ............ 40-50 knots on a big boat.

Again that's why I need a little input from the old salty ocean guys that can see that (for example) the big powerful main on a westsail 32 for example will turn the boat into the wind.

Why do you think some of these old boats have such bad weather helm? It's that boom. It's too darn long. (im thinking)

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

Yea, I resemble that remark also,just what are you trying to say Don,that we sail around in primative,little ,tight ,skinny boats with thick hulls ?Well you are right, but, they arent that skinny,mines 9.5 and I think the Ludders a little wider,maybe..Your discrption sounds like a Kittiwake not the Ludders 33..

What I'm saying is I'm glad you like you boat, I really am! And it doesn't matter that I wouldn't like like it, which is why I don't have one.

But yes, in my opinion you are sailing around in a "primative, little, tight, skinny boat". Maybe you got confused about boats being a "she"

[neilpride]

You Know? you are the kind of guy ready to be crew in a bigger boat, sad i leave the boat delivery work time agoo, could be a nice idea if you try to sail in bigger boats out there as crew to start with something..

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Why do you think some of these old boats have such bad weather helm? It's that boom. It's too darn long. (im thinking)

No it's because people have these big 135% headsails on them that they roll up last.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Don L

No it's because people have these big 135% headsails on them that they roll up last.

What? after all this................maybe I just misunderstood what you were trying to say.

[goboatingnow]

I find it rather amusing that a bloke who self admits his experience with Hobie cats on 20 knots , sailing off the beach is arguing techniques about larger boats offshore against a series of acknowledged people with such specific experience , who are all disagreeing with him.

Firstly 20 knots offshore is a light breeze , secondly you keep thinking your in flat onshore style water.

Offshore in a breeze the waves are the key thing that dictate progress. Trying running downhill on a dirty wave train without a rudder. ( drogues or not ) come back to us when you're tried it , then argue with us ( and we' ll listen! )

I'm with Dockhead , what a silly thread.
Rudder security is a ridiculous concern , there are very few failures each year , its simply not an issue irrespective of what rudder construction.

pS Steve Callaghan did not have an EPIRB. I beleive his adventure predates COSPAR SARsAT

Today the average wait in a liferaft is 4 days irrespective of location.

Dave

Dave