Blue Water Boats ........Again.

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

RTW is a tiny percentage of users , milk run sailing in deep oceans is a doodle. If you want to see boats handling heavy weather as a matter of course , look at northern European sailing or NZ. Type a look at the common types so sailing there. I mean this is above 50 north . !! I think you could count the Amels on one hand there.

But in general you are agreeing with me , most are ordinary boats , why, because today's ordinary boats with a little care and attention are capable of RTW.

You certainly dont need $million boats to do it in.

Ps the 1500 is very different to a 4 week Atlantic crossing
Dave

Dave, I was replying to someone's comment about RTW boats. I think we are agreeing in general about the boats out there. While a new Amel or Oyster might be a nice way to go, for the majority of us the question is how to the sailing you want to do for X dollars, where X is a lot less than 7 figures.

I agree that the 1500 is different from something like the ARC. The 1500 is shorter but the weather conditions are much less predictable. We did not do the 1500, but went to St Thomas at the same time. Had a massive cold front that eventually went from Cuba to Greenland and only moved very slowly to the NE. Had 30 to 40 knots for a week (followed by less than 10 knots for four days). Only comparable weather we have had was from Mauritius to South Africa. The ARC is in your doodle trade winds - not a casual trip to be sure, but pretty straightforward.

[goboatingnow]

One time I crossed the Atlantic its was three weeks at average 40 knots. The sailmaker in st lucia was delighted by all the business the ARC brought

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Tom with the greatest of respect , your experience seems to be racing based and around Hobie cats !

To suggest that a cruising boat in any weather can be steered by sails after loosing a rudder is pure " book advice " even with a locked rudder it's really hard.

Dave

Dave,

I think we are getting somewhere here. Let's take one thing at a time. (rudder locked) It's true that I'm no Blue Water Expert, but I can sail my boat which some call a cruising boat with the rudder locked in place.

I was crossing the lower Chesapeake a month or so ago, and got tired of listening to the chirpy tiller autopilot so I unplugged it. It was still holding the tiller however. I sailed the next 10-12 miles like this while I continued reading my book. Whenever the boat tried to " round up " into the wind I just eased the main sheet a bit.

It wasn't hard.

Now another thing, we as catsailors sail off the beach a lot. Many times the water is quite shallow so we are used to sailing with the rudders up. ( and many times our feet dragging in the water) Sometimes we will sail all the way to the start line drinking our prerace beer before we lower the rudders and get serious.

Now to apply this to a heavy cruising boat in larger seas, I'd say get up some speed going off the wind a bit then use the sails to correct your course. And it would be nice if the wind wasn't on the nose so to speak in the direction you want to go.........


Check this video. Some guys grasp things lots better with visual stimuli:

Preview of SailSimXL 3.0.6 with Sail Steering - YouTube

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Dave,

I think we are getting somewhere here. Let's take one thing at a time. (rudder locked) It's true that I'm no Blue Water Expert, but I can sail my boat which some call a cruising boat with the rudder locked in place.

I was crossing the lower Chesapeake a month or so ago, and got tired of listening to the chirpy tiller autopilot so I unplugged it. It was still holding the tiller however. I sailed the next 10-12 miles like this while I continued reading my book. Whenever the boat tried to " round up " into the wind I just eased the main sheet a bit.

It wasn't hard.

Now another thing, we as catsailors sail off the beach a lot. Many times the water is quite shallow so we are used to sailing with the rudders up. ( and many times our feet dragging in the water) Sometimes we will sail all the way to the start line drinking our prerace beer before we lower the rudders and get serious.

Now to apply this to a heavy cruising boat in larger seas, I'd say get up some speed going off the wind a bit then use the sails to correct your course. And it would be nice if the wind wasn't on the nose so to speak in the direction you want to go.........


Check this video. Some guys grasp things lots better with visual stimuli:

In theory, certain light dingys can do a lot of things without rudders, back to the real world a 35000 pounds boat without rudder can be a problem, rigs choices play a role here, a ketch rig have more ways to trim small sails and get on course without a rudder, or cutters with the staysail, but is tough , what you experience in your light disp boat cant be compared to a heavy boat , it depend of the conditions and the design, many boats equiped with a wind vane like the Aries or Atom kinda style got a spare rudder in case of troubles, and i see many rudders with holes in the top or bottom to fit lines and steer in emergencys ..

To me loosing a rudder in a boat is a complete epic fiasco from the builder designer perspective, we all know spade rudders dont have a chance by the design unless are suported in part by a skeg , or top partial skeg,
my boat rudder is a hell of rudder, almost imposible to fall down in any event , droping a spi pole at the stern or towing warps , sails, etc.. can be the last resort and i agree with you, triming sails in large boats to hold a course is kinda hard or imposible in many boats, in large seas going off the wind without a rudder is a Banzaiii decision , a uncontrolled jibe risking a roll over or worst, for me in this conditions is when a heavy full keel boat have better chances, you swicht from a active to a pasive tactic, hove to without rudder can be posible i guess, waiting for conditions to improve or to make or build a steering device, and light boats relying in speed and control in certains situations are the worst without rudders,, here i agree with the other poster saying something let the boat take care by itself...

Cheers..

[thomm225]

Okay, I get that it's not like sailing off the beach on a catamaran trying not to run over women and small children etc with the rudders up using the sails only to steer and not spilling your beer in the process.

How about this: you are north of the Bahamas and you cannot get your knots untied on the tiller that is centering the rudder on your Westsail 32. The wind is southeast at 22 knots. I'm thinking you can throw up a couple headsails and eventually hit land..........America etc.

Yeah it's sort of a joke about the knots and the perfect scanario wind, but since we have been discussing rudders and whatnot. How about that Westsail 32?

That looks like a stout rudder to my untrained eye. Maybe that should be the boat to go after (especially since I know where one is that's been sitting in the same spot for years)

And most folks probably know the story of the WestSail 32 Satori that pretty much sailed itself to the beach of Assateague, VA I believe after the crew was taken off and the skipper forced to abandon ship.

[neilpride]

Lol, okey, but choose a westsail 32 by this rudder desing and construction sounds lame, sorry, the 32 is kinda a sea bunker , she can digest almost any sea condition , but dont expect sail perfomance , dont like light winds , is heavy, and prone to hobby horsing, moving from a bristol 27 with some sailing perfomance to a brick can be funny, no ofense the west 32 is a strong cruiser , small, good for a couple, super in hig winds but you need to have lot of patienceeeee....

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by maersi

Another factor to consider is how people like to sail. What works for you? Some folks, especially those with a racing background, will relish the thrill of sailing fast, I am more of an "ooh it's getting windy and splashy" kind of guy. I would rather heave to in bad weather (given adequate searoom), so my preference is for a more traditional design, a boat that can look after itself.
That doesn't do it for others. Many modern designs have to be sailed, they need somebody on the helm.
Maybe I arrive when all the best spots have been taken. All the other crews have eaten and are enjoying their sundowners in the cockpit. Maybe I don't arrive until the next morning, in which case I get to pick the best spot to drop anchor

There is no right or wrong answer. If this is about blue water sailing, then the boat is your home. You will spend most of the time at anchor, or in a marina. From that point of view, then Gulfstars and Irwins are good choices (just look for good weather windows). If you are turned on by speed, then an ultralight with a plumb stem and a flat bottom works best. If sailing is just the boring thing you must do to travel between anchorages, then look for a boat that can look after itself, and stock up on warm beer.

Thanks, I've already done the speed thing. I want something more traditional I believe. With maybe some sailing ability. I really like the way the Bristol 32 looks but it has an awfully short water line. 22'

Maybe a Bristol 35.5 would be good choice as something between the new and the old. I like the Tartan 34s and 37s also.

[laika]

If you can find one, the Alajuela 33 is a near-perfect cruising boat to my eye.

Also a big fan of the Baba 30, Hans Christian 33T, PS Mariah 31, etc. Lots of nice heavy boats out there! These ones are all pretty expensive. If on a budget, something like the Southern Cross 31 or Yankee 30. Many others.

Lots of good sites to research the hell out of, like bluewaterboats.org.

Re: a bike, I've got a folding Dahon Mariner D7 that stows in a lazarette. Good bike for a small boat.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by neilpride

In theory, certain light dingys can do a lot of things without rudders, back to the real world a 35000 pounds boat without rudder can be a problem, rigs choices play a role here, a ketch rig have more ways to trim small sails and get on course without a rudder, or cutters with the staysail, but is tough , what you experience in your light disp boat cant be compared to a heavy boat , it depend of the conditions and the design, many boats equiped with a wind vane like the Aries or Atom kinda style got a spare rudder in case of troubles, and i see many rudders with holes in the top or bottom to fit lines and steer in emergencys ..

To me loosing a rudder in a boat is a complete epic fiasco from the builder designer perspective, we all know spade rudders dont have a chance by the design unless are suported in part by a skeg , or top partial skeg,
my boat rudder is a hell of rudder, almost imposible to fall down in any event , droping a spi pole at the stern or towing warps , sails, etc.. can be the last resort and i agree with you, triming sails in large boats to hold a course is kinda hard or imposible in many boats, in large seas going off the wind without a rudder is a Banzaiii decision , a uncontrolled jibe risking a roll over or worst, for me in this conditions is when a heavy full keel boat have better chances, you swicht from a active to a pasive tactic, hove to without rudder can be posible i guess, waiting for conditions to improve or to make or build a steering device, and light boats relying in speed and control in certains situations are the worst without rudders,, here i agree with the other poster saying something let the boat take care by itself...

Cheers..

So, in the case (of a lost or locked to center rudder) a smaller cruising boat like a 6600 lb Bristol 27 with it's full keel would be better since I know that it can be sailed at least with the rudder locked dead center. (and probably without the rudder as well)

I was once told that it was best to learn sailing on small boats (such as small racing catamarans) so you can try out this sort of thing, and I'm beginning to see the guy knew what he was talking about. It also allows you to see what happens quickly when you pull a string.

[sailorboy1]

seems such a crazy way to chose a cruiser

question - Why are you cruising in such a small boat?
answer - So if I ever lose the rudder I can maybe steer it with the sails.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Don L

seems such a crazy way to chose a cruiser

question - Why are you cruising in such a small boat?
answer - So if I ever lose the rudder I can maybe steer it with the sails.

You forgot to mention the rudder was lost in 25 foot breaking seas. For me, I'd rather be on a Sundeer 64 platform with a lost rudder in those conditions than a 27 ft anything.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Don L

seems such a crazy way to chose a cruiser

question - Why are you cruising in such a small boat?
answer - So if I ever lose the rudder I can maybe steer it with the sails.

Good point. I was wanting to still get across the fact that a cruising boat actually can be sailed without the rudder. If I had said any boat other than the one I have sailed with the rudder locked in position, it wouldn't have been believed because I have mainly sailed small racing catamarans.

My next boat will probably be some where between 32' and 36'. I'm thinking I'll be able to sail that pretty much any way I want to as well. You see, small racing catamarans do not have engines, so you sail them everywhere which would include under the bridges against the wind, up channels against the wind and tide etc. You get lots of practice.

But to be fair, you can point a lot higher on one of those catamarans than you can on these cruising monohulls at least the ones I have experience on.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Paul L

You forgot to mention the rudder was lost in 25 foot breaking seas. For me, I'd rather be on a Sundeer 64 platform with a lost rudder in those conditions than a 27 ft anything.

I won't be sailing in 25' seas on any boat if I can help it..........I'm pretty big on the weather reports even when just crossing the 17 miles of the lower Chesapeake where it meets he Atlantic Ocean which believe it or not can get pretty darn bad.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I won't be sailing in 25' seas on any boat if I can help it..........I'm pretty big on the weather reports even when just crossing the 17 miles of the lower Chesapeake where it meets he Atlantic Ocean which believe it or not can get pretty darn bad.

None of us want. The point I was making was that catastrophic failures don't necssarily happen in beniegn conditions. That's one reason the simplistic book solutions often aren't practical.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Don L

seems such a crazy way to chose a cruiser

question - Why are you cruising in such a small boat?
answer - So if I ever lose the rudder I can maybe steer it with the sails.

If I lose a rudder, I'll continue by using the other one!