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Old 25-06-2013, 14:45   #91
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Whether "You" and "Your" boat is capable of doing something is never dependent on someone else or their boat not being as capable.
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Old 25-06-2013, 14:57   #92
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laika View Post
From what I understand, the average length of boats out voyaging has increased substantially in the last 30 years (I'm only 30 myself, so this is hearsay). My boat, though only 27', has all everything you could need: comfortable cockpit, full galley, full nav station, comfortable marine head, etc. Everything's there, only in smaller proportions.

It's a bit unfortunate to my eye, because I think a lot more people, especially my age, would be out cruising if they didn't think they needed a 40' boat to do it. I cruised aboard a 37' for a couple years and I can see how you might come to think that you couldn't do without every inch of what you got, but the reality is you don't have to be a masochist to live comfortably on a 25'-27', particularly one that's purpose-built.

I'd only ask your kindness to let me revisit this line of thought when I turn 70. Or if the crew size increases.
There used to be a rule of thumb that your boat should be one foot long for every year of your age (where is my 64 footer anyway?). The under 35 foot boats we have seen cruising in obscure places have typically, but not always, been sailed by people who followed the rule pretty well.
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Old 25-06-2013, 15:19   #93
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
body weight placement ain't worth sh*t on my 40 foot 10 ton fin keeler, unlesss you have 20 beefy guys to weather, which I ain't gonna have on a passage.

sheesh - get real. when you're talking circumnavigators, unless you're a masochist you don't wanna do it in at 25-27 footer.

ok, hobies are lots of fun >(sailed 'em myself), so are smaller boats (had a 22 foot Guy once), but for serious ocean work you wanna get up to at least 36-38 feet.

You wanna take you 20 foot cat out in force 11? let me know where to send the flowers
Looks like you are missing the point. You can continue to sail your boat if the rudder is not there by using the sails. See my explanation above or watch the video. This though kind of explains why many (but not all) cruisers replace their sails last when restoring an old boat.
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Old 25-06-2013, 15:31   #94
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
body weight placement ain't worth sh*t on my 40 foot 10 ton fin keeler, unlesss you have 20 beefy guys to weather, which I ain't gonna have on a passage.

sheesh - get real. when you're talking circumnavigators, unless you're a masochist you don't wanna do it in at 25-27 footer.

ok, hobies are lots of fun >(sailed 'em myself), so are smaller boats (had a 22 foot Guy once), but for serious ocean work you wanna get up to at least 36-38 feet.

You wanna take you 20 foot cat out in force 11? let me know where to send the flowers
Actually, I never said I wanted to sail RTW on a 25-27 foot boat, but it has been done twice on a Contessa 26. Once by 18 year old Tania Aebi. Also Robin Lee Graham sailed 3/4 the way around on a 24' boat before getting a Luders 33 for the last leg.

But you are right in a way, you would definitely want to be young to do it on a small boat. Also learned from catamaran sailing when I went from my heavy 450lb NACRA 6.0 (20') 2 man catamaran to the lighter NACRA Singlehanded F-17 with spinnaker.

NACRA 6.0 not good for super big seas but it can train you to sail fast and efficiently if you race:



similar boat to the NACRA F17 weighing in at about 250lbs with the same sail area as my 6600 lb Bristol 27:



these boats can teach you tons about sailing because when you pull a "string" the boat responds like NOW not 50 seconds later.

Below is an Inter 20 Catamaran negociating Diamond Shoals on the Outer Banks during the Worrell 1000 Race.
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Old 25-06-2013, 15:43   #95
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

The Islander 36 wasn't on the list because it's better suited--out of the box--as a coastal cruiser. Yes, the 36 is a great boat, and I loved ours with all my heart, but with only 70 gallons of freshwater, 30 gallons of fuel, and dinky propane tanks, she's not ready to be taken on the big puddle jumping adventure. Now, with that all said, if you make modifications--increase tankage, add a water maker, go massive with your solar, then yes, she's a great cruiser.

We sailed our 1974 Islander 36 from Oxnard, CA to Zihuatanejo, Mex and had a fantastic adventure...but we needed to duck into marinas for water and more power (yes, we had solar panels but they were too small. our engine hated our cruising alternator and we had to switch it back to the original 55A somewhere along the Baja).

I wrote a little more about our Islander and selling her here on ....Always Go Blog

The fuel capacity wasn't really an issue for us...from Ensenada to Cabo we used only about 20 gallons of fuel. We sailed a lot, and the Islander is a hellofa great sailing vessel. Mostly it was the water tankage issue and two tall people living in a V-berth. And, probably, the one-butt galley....but other than that, a solid boat. I like that it's a skeg-hung rudder.

Email me if you want more pros/cons to the Islander 36. Heck I just saw one for sale in Los Angeles for $10K...I was tempted to bite again.
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Old 25-06-2013, 16:06   #96
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post

Your experience on a NACRA 6.0 (a small racing cat) is commendable, but not particularly relevant in a discussion of "bluewater" boats, other than as a counterexample. Sure, some guy crossed the Bering Strait on a windsurfer, but that doesn't make a windsurfer a desirable ocean-crosser. And your mast bend/rotation skills may not apply so well to a non-fractional fixed rig.
Actually, to set your prebend on masthead fixed rigs, you crank in more tension on your forward lowers.
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Old 25-06-2013, 16:23   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post

Looks like you are missing the point. You can continue to sail your boat if the rudder is not there by using the sails. See my explanation above or watch the video. This though kind of explains why many (but not all) cruisers replace their sails last when restoring an old boat.
This is not true.

Edit: it is only partially true. You can go in a limited set of direction with a locked rudder, but with no rudder at all or a bent rudder you are stuffed unless you make an emergency rudder.

You are describing using sails for a cat which has limited underwater profile with a high aspect centreboard in each hull. This very fine CE point allows for the ability to sail without a rudder as the sails changing CE with trim make the boat pivot on the hull CE.

Not the case for most cruising boats. You would know this if you has sailed more larger cruising boats without rudders or had even tried this technique for fun on a large boat during passage - which is clear you haven't. I think most cruisers have idled away hours on passage playing with using their sails to steer a boat. My boat has twin centreboards fore and aft so I even get to use those to fine tune balance.

It would be more constructive if you allowed for the fact that your experience using sails to steer boats is limited to small cats and not larger boats, instead making the false claim that it works for all sail plans and all boats. It doesn't, not by miles.

Especially if the rudder has actually been knocked off the back of the boat, or is locked off centre or bent to one side or the other.
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Old 25-06-2013, 16:54   #98
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
This is not true.

Edit: it is only partially true. You can go in a limited set of direction with a locked rudder, but with no rudder at all or a bent rudder you are stuffed unless you make an emergency rudder.

You are describing using sails for a cat which has limited underwater profile with a high aspect centreboard in each hull. This very fine CE point allows for the ability to sail without a rudder as the sails changing CE with trim make the boat pivot on the hull CE.

Not the case for most cruising boats. You would know this if you has sailed more larger cruising boats without rudders or had even tried this technique for fun on a large boat during passage - which is clear you haven't. I think most cruisers have idled away hours on passage playing with using their sails to steer a boat. My boat has twin centreboards fore and aft so I even get to use those to fine tune balance.

It would be more constructive if you allowed for the fact that your experience using sails to steer boats is limited to small cats and not larger boats, instead making the false claim that it works for all sail plans and all boats. It doesn't, not by miles.

Especially if the rudder has actually been knocked off the back of the boat, or is locked off centre or bent to one side or the other.
Yes if it's bent you have a problem unless you luck out and it's bent the right way. I got tired of listening to my chirpy autopilot last time I crossed the bay so I turn it off and left the rudder where it was and sailed the next 12 miles or so with the main sheet. I was too lazy to play the jib since I rode my bike 30 miles earlier in the day. Plus I was reading and didn't want to hear it.

You can try and say the big boats are different than the smaller ones but the same fundamentals apply. Let's face it, monohull guys have a lot to keep up with. There's the engine, the teak, the bright work etc whereas with the catamaran sailor there's only sailing!

I must point out again that the last thing most cruisers replaces is the sail. You can talk about CE all you want and the under water profile, but the main and the jib drive (and steer if necessary) the boat. Ever heard of weather helm? Try releasing the main and see what happens too your weather helm.
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Old 25-06-2013, 17:06   #99
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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You don't know anything about me other than what might be on a forum really now do you? A and you don't know anything about my boat other than a name and model either and have absolutely ZERO experience with it (like most internet experts who comment on boats they know nothing about).

On the other hand I feel pretty safe in my knowing something about you, and that it is you are very close cousin to an "ask pole" who admitted to making postings with no real point to than to prove it.
Your avatar seems relevant to this conversation.
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Old 25-06-2013, 17:12   #100
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Your avatar seems relevant to this conversation.

If I change it to "positive about everything and the worlds premier internet expert on all things" does turn me into a CF God?
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Old 25-06-2013, 17:13   #101
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Yes if it's bent you have a problem unless you luck out and it's bent the right way. I got tired of listening to my chirpy autopilot last time I crossed the bay so I turn it off and left the rudder where it was and sailed the next 12 miles or so with the main sheet. I was too lazy to play the jib since I rode my bike 30 miles earlier in the day. Plus I was reading and didn't want to hear it.

You can try and say the big boats are different than the smaller ones but the same fundamentals apply. Let's face it, monohull guys have a lot to keep up with. There's the engine, the teak, the bright work etc whereas with the catamaran sailor there's only sailing!

I must point out again that the last thing most cruisers replaces is the sail. You can talk about CE all you want and the under water profile, but the main and the jib drive (and steer if necessary) the boat. Ever heard of weather helm? Try releasing the main and see what happens too your weather helm.
Try dropping your rudder out the bottom of the boat and see how well the boat continues to steer. Comparing a short trip across the Bay to an offshore wind and sea condition is apples and oranges. It is far more difficult to steer a big boat that looses its rudder than the sailing books say. There was J/44 (J46) that was 3/4 of the way around with a very experienced crew that lost a rudder in the Atlantic. They worked on approached to deal with it for days. Pretty much till exhaustion. Then abandoned the boat. Many weeks latter the boat washed up in Barbados. Take alook at the foil on the rudder of a fin keel boat. They are finely foiled and have a major effect on the ability to keep the boat moving in a straight line. You can start throwing up the bolt the head door to the spinnaker pole approach or similar, but try that on a 30,000lb boat. It is much harder to do than to write about. You can have a back up rudder, but the size and storage issues can be limiting.
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Old 25-06-2013, 17:25   #102
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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If I change it to "positive about everything and the worlds premier internet expert on all things" does turn me into a CF God?
It couldn't hurt.
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Old 25-06-2013, 17:26   #103
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Try dropping your rudder out the bottom of the boat and see how well the boat continues to steer. Comparing a short trip across the Bay to an offshore wind and sea condition is apples and oranges. It is far more difficult to steer a big boat that looses its rudder than the sailing books say. There was J/44 (J46) that was 3/4 of the way around with a very experienced crew that lost a rudder in the Atlantic. They worked on approached to deal with it for days. Pretty much till exhaustion. Then abandoned the boat. Many weeks latter the boat washed up in Barbados. Take alook at the foil on the rudder of a fin keel boat. They are finely foiled and have a major effect on the ability to keep the boat moving in a straight line. You can start throwing up the bolt the head door to the spinnaker pole approach or similar, but try that on a 30,000lb boat. It is much harder to do than to write about. You can have a back up rudder, but the size and storage issues can be limiting.
Jeez, I'm not saying steering the boat with the sails alone is better than having the rudder. I'm saying you should be able to get yourself in with the sails without the rudder. (plus a jury rigged rudder or drag)

If a J boat was involved in your post above that would indicate it was a race of some sort which is why they dropped out. My point is you don't have to just call for help and wait if you lose your rudder but that you should be able to sail the boat in with the sails alone.

Now if a storm or something was approaching you'd have to go ahead and abandon if you could. I was pointing out that knowledge of sailing was important when I was told earlier it didn't amount to much but knowing if your sink would drain at 25 degrees was of paramount importance. Btw, I have shut off all seacocks on my Bristol to include the sink!

For example, put up a couple head sails and pole them out, I reckon your boat is going to go downwind just fine ...............especially if you have an old full keel boat!
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Old 25-06-2013, 17:26   #104
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post

(...)

those type boats (classic full keel Cape Dory, Bristol, Contessa 26) are just better for ocean cruising. Is this a true statement?

(...)
It is a false statement. And on many levels so.

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Old 25-06-2013, 17:38   #105
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by cealpotts View Post
The Islander 36 wasn't on the list because it's better suited--out of the box--as a coastal cruiser. Yes, the 36 is a great boat, and I loved ours with all my heart, but with only 70 gallons of freshwater, 30 gallons of fuel, and dinky propane tanks, she's not ready to be taken on the big puddle jumping adventure. Now, with that all said, if you make modifications--increase tankage, add a water maker, go massive with your solar, then yes, she's a great cruiser.

We sailed our 1974 Islander 36 from Oxnard, CA to Zihuatanejo, Mex and had a fantastic adventure...but we needed to duck into marinas for water and more power (yes, we had solar panels but they were too small. our engine hated our cruising alternator and we had to switch it back to the original 55A somewhere along the Baja).

I wrote a little more about our Islander and selling her here on ....Always Go Blog

The fuel capacity wasn't really an issue for us...from Ensenada to Cabo we used only about 20 gallons of fuel. We sailed a lot, and the Islander is a hellofa great sailing vessel. Mostly it was the water tankage issue and two tall people living in a V-berth. And, probably, the one-butt galley....but other than that, a solid boat. I like that it's a skeg-hung rudder.

Email me if you want more pros/cons to the Islander 36. Heck I just saw one for sale in Los Angeles for $10K...I was tempted to bite again.
Ceal
Thanks for the info on the Islander. The one near me has the 4'9" keel. Any thoughts? It's a 1979 I believe with a 2000 diesel I think.

1979 Islander Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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