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Old 25-06-2013, 11:20   #76
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Dont forget mention the bucket! very important ....
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Old 25-06-2013, 11:43   #77
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Your experience on a NACRA 6.0 (a small racing cat) is commendable, but not particularly relevant in a discussion of "bluewater" boats, other than as a counterexample. Sure, some guy crossed the Bering Strait on a windsurfer, but that doesn't make a windsurfer a desirable ocean-crosser. And your mast bend/rotation skills may not apply so well to a non-fractional fixed rig.
One thing about knowing how to sail as learned from small catamaran racing that does apply to offshore sailing would be knowledge of what drives the boat.

Recently on another thread, a boat had lost its rudder just north of the Bahamas I believe. Many experienced cruisers were suggesting calling for help and doing nothing. But as a racer, you would know that most of the driving force for a sailboat are the sails. The skipper of that boat should have been able to drive his boat on in with the sails alone. If he needed more stability maybe he could tie a spinnaker pole or something like that off the stern or drag something.

During the Worrell 1000 catamaran race which is from around Ft Lauderdale, Fl to Virginia Beach, VA sailors have been known to sail along the inside of the breakers in shallow water with their rudders up rather than blasting through the surf line right away on the morning starts. This way they can gain some speed and look for a gap where the waves are not as high.

So I'm thinking a good knowledge of sailing is relevant even when sailing offshore. (Blue Water Sailing)
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Old 25-06-2013, 11:49   #78
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Another thing about knowing how to sail as learned from small catamaran racing would be knowledge of what drives the boat.
[...]
So I'm thinking a good knowledge of sailing is relevant even when sailing offshore. (Blue Water Sailing)
Of course it is. Sailing skill can be very important and nobody has said otherwise. In fact, you will hear people saying again and again "It's not the boat, it's the sailor." Personally, I think the boat is also important, but I suppose that saying isn't meant to be taken literally.

Look, my own boat is definitely one that fits well in any bluewater list. It's heavy, not too fast, rugged, and comfortable. It sails well enough, but I will be out-pointed by many others. I love it. But I've sailed on and alongside enough other types of boats to not get hung up on these lists. I'm certainly not going to try to convince someone that their boat, which they have no doubt spent a lot of time and effort selecting and maintaining, isn't right for them. I've made my choice, they have made theirs, and we're both happy.
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Old 25-06-2013, 11:53   #79
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Of course it is. Sailing skill can be very important and nobody has said otherwise. In fact, you will hear people saying again and again "It's not the boat, it's the sailor." Personally, I think the boat is also important, but I suppose that saying isn't meant to be taken literally.

Look, my own boat is definitely one that fits well in any bluewater list. It's heavy, not too fast, rugged, and comfortable. It sails well enough, but I will be out-pointed by many others. I love it. But I've sailed on and alongside enough other types of boats to not get hung up on these lists. I'm certainly not going to try to convince someone that their boat, which they have no doubt spent a lot of time and effort selecting and maintaining, isn't right for them. I've made my choice, they have made theirs, and we're both happy.
I don't believe I was knocking other boats until the battle started above. I believe at one point I said I liked most all sailboats.

I certainly do like the older boats though, and if the faster fin keel boats are not that much better then I'll probably stay with some sort of Bristol, (maybe one of the newer designs like the 35.5), Alberg, or maybe even that WestSail 32 thats been sitting over on the Eastern Shore unused for years.
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Old 25-06-2013, 11:56   #80
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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post

Many experienced cruisers were suggesting calling for help and doing nothing. But as a racer, you would know that most of the driving force for a sailboat are the sails. The skipper of that boat should have been able to drive his boat on in with the alone. If he needed more stability maybe he could tie a pole or something like that off the stern or drag something.
As a "racer" like yourself, I have have always found it fun to play with balancing a boat using the sails with the rudder set to neutral. I have found it difficult to do more than sail a very limited range of angles to the wind however, and these angles seemed to be dictated more by the keel type and underwater profile than any driving force of the sails.

I also have friends who completely lost their rudder while racing a TransPac and they attempted to drive their boat with sail alone, but the CE of the underwater profile had changed so much they couldnt find a way to balance the boat.

Could you explain in more detail how one should approach using solely the sails to lay a course?

Maybe share what boats you have done this on so we can understand how different hulls and sail plans can be made to do this effectively?

Cheers!
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Old 25-06-2013, 12:03   #81
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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As a "racer" like yourself, I have have always found it fun to play with balancing a boat using the sails with the rudder set to neutral. I have found it difficult to do more than sail a very limited range of angles to the wind however, and these angles seemed to be dictated more by the keel type and underwater profile than any driving force of the sails.

I also have friends who completely lost their rudder while racing a TransPac and they attempted to drive their boat with sail alone, but the CE of the underwater profile had changed so much they couldnt find a way to balance the boat.

Could you explain in more detail how one should approach using solely the sails to lay a course?

Maybe share what boats you have done this on so we can understand how different hulls and sail plans can be made to do this effectively?

Cheers!
Sure. I've had 4 catamarans (2 with 3'-4' daggerboards) and those are the boats I know best but this should apply to all sloop rigged boats.

The main is used to bring the bow into the wind. The jib to bring the bow off the wind. You just have to balance things out by sheeting the two sails to what works best. You may have to reef the main or something on some boats, but when I have done this on cats, the sails stayed their full size and it wasn't a problem.

Next we can talk about backing up if you'd like. Sometimes you have to backup if you get to near the start line before the gun goes off. (you don't want to be over early)
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Old 25-06-2013, 12:20   #82
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
I don't believe I was knocking other boats until the battle started above. I believe at one point I said I liked most all sailboats.

I certainly do like the older boats though, and if the faster fin keel boats are not that much better then I'll probably stay with some sort of Bristol, (maybe one of the newer designs like the 35.5), Alberg, or maybe even that WestSail 32 thats been sitting over on the Eastern Shore unused for years.
The description of "Blue Water Boats" is a fallacy.

This should be added to the list, after all, it crossed an ocean:
Kayak Across the Atlantic: Amazon.co.uk: Peter Bray: Books
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Old 25-06-2013, 12:22   #83
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

For a sailor on a tight budget, there sure are a lot of smallish older full keel tanks out there just waiting for a bit of sweat. My 27' is certainly cozy, but I like the small footprint of it and its dead simple systems. Works fine for 2 people and even a large dog. Sure would be nice to have another foot or two of beam sometimes tho! The occasional fantasies of enclosed heads with pressure showers and all that wonderful bliss..

Sure do love her tho. My only regret is that I would likely need to step up if a couple kiddies ever fell from the sky.
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Old 25-06-2013, 13:38   #84
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
As a "racer" like yourself, I have have always found it fun to play with balancing a boat using the sails with the rudder set to neutral. I have found it difficult to do more than sail a very limited range of angles to the wind however, and these angles seemed to be dictated more by the keel type and underwater profile than any driving force of the sails.

I also have friends who completely lost their rudder while racing a TransPac and they attempted to drive their boat with sail alone, but the CE of the underwater profile had changed so much they couldnt find a way to balance the boat.

Could you explain in more detail how one should approach using solely the sails to lay a course?

Maybe share what boats you have done this on so we can understand how different hulls and sail plans can be made to do this effectively?

Cheers!
Here's a good video that shows what I was explaining in my post above: (plus it shows the aid of body weight placement)

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Old 25-06-2013, 13:45   #85
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

body weight placement ain't worth sh*t on my 40 foot 10 ton fin keeler, unlesss you have 20 beefy guys to weather, which I ain't gonna have on a passage.

sheesh - get real. when you're talking circumnavigators, unless you're a masochist you don't wanna do it in at 25-27 footer.

ok, hobies are lots of fun >(sailed 'em myself), so are smaller boats (had a 22 foot Guy once), but for serious ocean work you wanna get up to at least 36-38 feet.

You wanna take you 20 foot cat out in force 11? let me know where to send the flowers
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Old 25-06-2013, 13:54   #86
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Another factor to consider is how people like to sail. What works for you? Some folks, especially those with a racing background, will relish the thrill of sailing fast, I am more of an "ooh it's getting windy and splashy" kind of guy. I would rather heave to in bad weather (given adequate searoom), so my preference is for a more traditional design, a boat that can look after itself.
That doesn't do it for others. Many modern designs have to be sailed, they need somebody on the helm.
Maybe I arrive when all the best spots have been taken. All the other crews have eaten and are enjoying their sundowners in the cockpit. Maybe I don't arrive until the next morning, in which case I get to pick the best spot to drop anchor

There is no right or wrong answer. If this is about blue water sailing, then the boat is your home. You will spend most of the time at anchor, or in a marina. From that point of view, then Gulfstars and Irwins are good choices (just look for good weather windows). If you are turned on by speed, then an ultralight with a plumb stem and a flat bottom works best. If sailing is just the boring thing you must do to travel between anchorages, then look for a boat that can look after itself, and stock up on warm beer.
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Old 25-06-2013, 14:11   #87
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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You need to get out more. Hundreds of ordinary boats " out there "

Look at the boats on the ARC

Catalinas are fine boats , but American sailboats don't export well and US is proportionally a motor boat country. The main sailing centres in Greater Europe and down under are where to look to see what's what.

Amels are produced in such small numbers as to insignificant statistically

Dave
Gee, other than being on 'injury reserve' right now, I thought I had been out there in the last five years or so with around 30,000 miles. Most of the boats out there are quite ordinary but there are just not many Catalinas, although a few of the old Morgan Catalina are kicking around. Amels are produced in small numbers for sure, and pricey, but we were tied up in a marina in Darwin, Oz and there were three Amels tied up within 150 feet of us. People who buy Amels actually seem to use them for their appointed purpose.

ARC is representative of what is happening in the Atlantic, probably better than the 1500, but things change beyond the Atlantic. With the Red Sea being shut down the best place to see RTW boats is South Africa. Of the mass production boats there are far more Beneteaus of various types, but it is very rare to see even two examples of any boat. One exception, there were a couple of Vegas there.
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Old 25-06-2013, 14:38   #88
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Don from your earlier posts I know you have limited sailing knowledge so start you engine and go enjoy your boat.
You don't know anything about me other than what might be on a forum really now do you? A and you don't know anything about my boat other than a name and model either and have absolutely ZERO experience with it (like most internet experts who comment on boats they know nothing about).

On the other hand I feel pretty safe in my knowing something about you, and that it is you are very close cousin to an "ask pole" who admitted to making postings with no real point to than to prove it.
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Old 25-06-2013, 14:41   #89
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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when you're talking circumnavigators, unless you're a masochist you don't wanna do it in at 25-27 footer.
From what I understand, the average length of boats out voyaging has increased substantially in the last 30 years (I'm only 30 myself, so this is hearsay). My boat, though only 27', has all everything you could need: comfortable cockpit, full galley, full nav station, comfortable marine head, etc. Everything's there, only in smaller proportions.

It's a bit unfortunate to my eye, because I think a lot more people, especially my age, would be out cruising if they didn't think they needed a 40' boat to do it. I cruised aboard a 37' for a couple years and I can see how you might come to think that you couldn't do without every inch of what you got, but the reality is you don't have to be a masochist to live comfortably on a 25'-27', particularly one that's purpose-built.

I'd only ask your kindness to let me revisit this line of thought when I turn 70. Or if the crew size increases.
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Old 25-06-2013, 14:42   #90
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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. Many modern designs have to be sailed, they need somebody on the helm.
I don't understand when you got this idea. My boat takes care of itself just fine and once the sails are balanced sails along with hardly any rudder needed. In my mind any boat that doesn't could never be considered a "cruiser".

If someone wants to cruise on a boat that needs constant looking after than is going to make for a long trip. But if that is what they want to do it is OK with me.
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