Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 25-06-2013, 07:49   #61
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,479
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don L View Post
You don't know **** and this post just proves it.
Actually I do know a few things for example:

where to set the mast rake for better upwind and downwind performance, how much diamond wire tension to crank in for proper mast prebend, (on monohulls I reckon that be on the forward shrouds) how much mast rotation to use in upwind and downwind situations, how much downhaul to use, how much outhaul, how much sheeting, why the draft on a newer sail is better for upwind heavy wind than that of an older sail, when to drop the spinnaker for best downwind mark rounding, what to do on a crowded downwind mark rounding, how to hold the boat steady on the starting line with 20 or so other boats for say 45 seconds to a minute and so on............

And I still like the fact that the Bristol 27 has very little windage if it were caught in a storm. I would probably sail it for as long as I could under the smallest main I could get through reefing, then heave too, then drogue. The other post was to see if Don was really going to totally lose it and post something like what he did above.

Don from your earlier posts I know you have limited sailing knowledge so start you engine and go enjoy your boat.
__________________

__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2013, 08:06   #62
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...48293060,d.eWU

__________________

__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2013, 08:08   #63
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,224
Images: 2
pirate Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
You Sod.... you nicked all the popcorn... I hate you..
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2013, 08:10   #64
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
You Sod.... you nicked all the popcorn... I hate you..
Haha...
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2013, 08:10   #65
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,479
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

As stated before, the situation I described was to see Don's reaction. Was he going to totally freak out over some back and forth on a forum? I received his answer and yes, he did lose it.

Don stay calm and get that engine serviced!
__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2013, 08:26   #66
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Well , my point is , diferents boats for diferent folks, sure many mass production boats are sailing around the world , certain designs are more suitable for rough weather sailing and others are more suitable for coastal sailing, what happen when you take one coastal sailing designed boat and jump to the big blue or around the world? for me nothing, not big diference until you face real serious weather, cockpit locker lids in some productions boats are just so funy in the event of a capsize or hand holds to grab your body in rough seas, just examples, there is some tough individulas out there who made remarkable challenges in the sailing scenario, some write many pages of recomendations or attributes to found a serious boat to copy with long passages in almost all conditions, to me certain designers and builders are like artist, mozart, etc... and a good example is S&S , Frers post designs ,Perry, etc..

Thomm im sure you **** in your pants in f10 or f11 with your Triton, so be carefull with the can of sardines , you know? Cheers..
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2013, 08:46   #67
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,479
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Well , my point is , diferents boats for diferent folks, sure many mass production boats are sailing around the world , certain designs are more suitable for rough weather sailing and others are more suitable for coastal sailing, what happen when you take one coastal sailing designed boat and jump to the big blue or around the world? for me nothing, not big diference until you face real serious weather, cockpit locker lids in some productions boats are just so funy in the event of a capsize or hand holds to grab your body in rough seas, just examples, there is some tough individulas out there who made remarkable challenges in the sailing scenario, some write many pages of recomendations or attributes to found a serious boat to copy with long passages in almost all conditions, to me certain designers and builders are like artist, mozart, etc... and a good example is S&S , Frers post designs ,Perry, etc..

Thomm im sure you **** in your pants in f10 or f11 with your Triton, so be carefull with the can of sardines , you know? Cheers..
Thanks for the advice. I'm more of a blow chunks kinda guy though!

I'd still like to point out that the Contessa 32 Assent during the Fastnet '79 race never stopped sailing even though the winds were above 55 knots. They suffered 2 knockdowns I believe. That boat has a waterline of 24'. They had their main triple reefed and were steering into the crests of the worst waves.

(see link earlier in this thread. It's easy to find because Don started cussing and complaining soon afterward)

Oh the hell with it, I'll post the link again. It's an awesome story.

Fastnet 79 - The winner's story | Yachting World

In the event of any bad weather, you can bet I'll be going balls to the wall in the other direction. I didn't even enjoy this and it was only blowing 20 knots or so:

__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2013, 08:51   #68
Moderator
 
Paul Elliott's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,888
Images: 4
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Actually I do know a few things for example:

[rig-tuning, sail trim, race tactics, relative windage]

Don from your earlier posts I know you have limited sailing knowledge so start you engine and go enjoy your boat.
Thom225, I'm still not sure what your point is, other than to bash Hunters, but so far you're not convincing me.

Your experience on a NACRA 6.0 (a small racing cat) is commendable, but not particularly relevant in a discussion of "bluewater" boats, other than as a counterexample. Sure, some guy crossed the Bering Strait on a windsurfer, but that doesn't make a windsurfer a desirable ocean-crosser. And your mast bend/rotation skills may not apply so well to a non-fractional fixed rig.

Sail trim is of course valuable to know, for example in the canonical "clawing off a lee shore" situation, but many boats not on "the list" can sail to windward better than many of the "list" boats.

There are indeed some boats that are too lightly built to be considered bluewater-ready, but so far nobody has seriously suggested one of these for the task.

One problem with the bluewater definition is that it is truly mulltidimensional, but we tend to focus on the survival storm issue and minimize the others. And there are many other factors that come into play when cruising. What about the keel and rudder's ability to shed lines and seaweed? Tankage redundancy? Fuel tank access for cleaning? Engine access? How does the galley sink drain at a 25-degree heel? How about the head? These are things that matter on a long-distance voyage.

But I'm digressing into areas that have been discussed over and over again in other threads. So let me close with a sincere request. This forum has a "Be Nice" rule. We take it seriously. So please be nice.
__________________
Paul Elliott, S/V VALIS - Pacific Seacraft 44 #16 - Friday Harbor, WA
www.sailvalis.com
Paul Elliott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2013, 08:55   #69
Registered User
 
Blue Crab's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hurricane Highway
Boat: Cal 29
Posts: 3,883
pirate Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
...Thomm im sure you **** in your pants in f10 or f11 with your [Bristol], so be careful with the can of sardines , you know? Cheers..
Force 11, pants soiled, heaved, then heaved to...out of popcorn! and down to just sardines and warm beer... Oh for a life on the rolling sea.
__________________
Blue Crab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2013, 09:02   #70
Registered User
 
Andrew B.'s Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 347
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimsy View Post
You and Thomm are completely missing the point. That list is ONE persons opinion, nothing more. You are free to make up your own list. It will be a list of boats that YOU think are "Blue Water" boats. Someone might subscribe to, some one may not but really, who cares? These lists serve to point folks to likely candidates, not be written as Gospel.

People sail happily long distances on many different boats (GASP! Even Hunters!) the trick is knowing what your preferences are and buying something you feel good about. If you see you have the same criteria for design particulars as someone who has a list, then you are likely to find a suitable boat on a list. If your preferences don't match up, find another list...
Speaking only for myself I added the S&S34 and the PSC34 for the "OP",
not to diminish the "list". Only to add to it. If one makes a list public, one needs to accept the critique of said list. Seemed pretty glaring to me that just maybe the list
maker had other reasons for excluding the Contessa 32, S&S34, and PSC34, not
"design particulars" concerning "BLUE WATER" small sailboats. Not sure about the "full
time cruisers" specific, but I would bet that all three have well over 5,000 nm of
successful "blue water" sailing.
Which is what I believe the main topic is, or was.

I certainly "feel" great using my 30 yr old inline 4 P/U to pull my 20'CC a few miles to one of my buds for polishing, and service, but when I get ready to make the 100 mile trip to the lake I will be using the much newer V8 vehicle, and "feel" much more confident that I will arrive at said destination as planned.

Here's my current short list of boats I am considering.

PSC37
PSC34
S&S34
Contessa 32
Westsail 32
Hallberg-Rassy 35
and.....I "feel" that I will surely find others that meet my criteria as
I stumble along.

IMHO all easy on the eyes, and proven records of being able to
take a licking, and keep on ticking. This being said as I become
more knowledgeable, and experienced I may end up in a boat I
haven't even heard about thus far. As O' granny often said, 'the devils in
the details."


I got the "point" , but thanks for your concern, and admirable defense of
Evans list. Kind of curious though why he left several proven 'blue water'
boats off of his list. Maybe some brands were left off because they just don't
report their logs enough to some specific group ?
__________________
Andrew B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2013, 09:03   #71
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
Force 11, pants soiled, heaved, then heaved to...out of popcorn! and down to just sardines and warm beer... Oh for a life on the rolling sea.
Recipe for cold beer in the hig seas, put the cans in a net, fit a long line in the net , throw the whole thing to the sea and tow the net for a couple of hours , haaaa just work in cold seas......
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2013, 09:14   #72
Registered User
 
Blue Crab's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hurricane Highway
Boat: Cal 29
Posts: 3,883
pirate Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Recipe for cold beer in the hig seas, put the cans in a net, fit a long line in the net , throw the whole thing to the sea and tow the net for a couple of hours , haaaa just work in cold seas......

Cold seas are for real sailors. I'm an 80+ degree water temp guy. That way I don't need a hot water heater. But, alas, warm beer is a drag. And you know about dem Brits: they drink warm beer in the noonday sun.

We know Don's Hunter has cold beer all the time. We know Thomm's Bristol doesn't except at the dock. Case closed.
__________________
Blue Crab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2013, 09:27   #73
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
Cold seas are for real sailors. I'm an 80+ degree water temp guy. That way I don't need a hot water heater. But, alas, warm beer is a drag. And you know about dem Brits: they drink warm beer in the noonday sun.

We know Don's Hunter has cold beer all the time. We know Thomm's Bristol doesn't except at the dock. Case closed.
Dont forget mention the bucket! very important ....
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2013, 10:01   #74
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,479
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
Thom225, I'm still not sure what your point is, other than to bash Hunters, but so far you're not convincing me.

Your experience on a NACRA 6.0 (a small racing cat) is commendable, but not particularly relevant in a discussion of "bluewater" boats, other than as a counterexample. Sure, some guy crossed the Bering Strait on a windsurfer, but that doesn't make a windsurfer a desirable ocean-crosser. And your mast bend/rotation skills may not apply so well to a non-fractional fixed rig.

Sail trim is of course valuable to know, for example in the canonical "clawing off a lee shore" situation, but many boats not on "the list" can sail to windward better than many of the "list" boats.

There are indeed some boats that are too lightly built to be considered bluewater-ready, but so far nobody has seriously suggested one of these for the task.

One problem with the bluewater definition is that it is truly mulltidimensional, but we tend to focus on the survival storm issue and minimize the others. And there are many other factors that come into play when cruising. What about the keel and rudder's ability to shed lines and seaweed? Tankage redundancy? Fuel tank access for cleaning? Engine access? How does the galley sink drain at a 25-degree heel? How about the head? These are things that matter on a long-distance voyage.

But I'm digressing into areas that have been discussed over and over again in other threads. So let me close with a sincere request. This forum has a "Be Nice" rule. We take it seriously. So please be nice.
I'm just trying to figure out which boat to buy next. I believe anything I said that wasn't nice was in retaliation to a statement from another person that seemed to be unpleasant.

The NACRA 6.0 comments are to support the fact that I believe it's good to know how to sail since we are talking sailboats.

Thanks,

Tom
__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2013, 10:12   #75
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,479
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
Cold seas are for real sailors. I'm an 80+ degree water temp guy. That way I don't need a hot water heater. But, alas, warm beer is a drag. And you know about dem Brits: they drink warm beer in the noonday sun.

We know Don's Hunter has cold beer all the time. We know Thomm's Bristol doesn't except at the dock. Case closed.
Actually I think it'll stay cold for like 4 days in the ice box but by then I would have adjusted to the slowly warming and be ready for straight up warm beer.

But back to the blue water boat thing, I do not like the way my boat wallows going downwind on the bay when be have the Nor'easters and I'm coming back down the bay. Will say a 35' boat with about 6' draft fin keel do much better; a lot better? Maybe something like a Hallberg-Rassy 35? There's one for sale near here. We're talkin' bay waves maybe 5'-7' rather closely spaced ... mouth of the Chesapeake Bay type waves.
__________________

__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
water

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:37.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.