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Old 28-06-2013, 15:52   #211
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
I'm not saying I know everything. I'm saying I know what the sails can make the boat do. I can park it , turn it etc without water flow over the rudder. Also let's you know which sail is causing the weather helm and why if that sail is older it causes more weather helm.

Your the guy that doesn't like book learning right? Steven Callahan did have an EPIRB btw:

Steven Callahan : People.com

I doubt you'll read this so here:

Seven times in the course of the 76-day drift he spotted ships, twice within a mile. He fired his flare gun but there was no one on deck to see it. He wasn't bitter. "That's the way it is," he says. "My anger and frustration couldn't bring them topside to see me." Three times he turned on his EPIRB (emergency position-indicating radio beacon), hoping its signal would reach ships or aircraft. To no avail. Finally, on the night of April 20, he saw the glow of lights on the horizon before him. An island. By dawn he could see it, some 10 miles dead ahead, rising black-green in the rolling sea, a thin line of surf creaming at the foot of dark cliffs. Anxiously, Callahan began to wrap himself in plastic sheets to prepare for what looked like a rough ride through the surf, which in his weakened condition could have proved the most dangerous part of his journey.

He also had the EPIRB on the first few days I believe.

Airline pilots begin flying on very small planes. keep that in mind
The emergency beacons of that time did use the same technology as today's EPIRBs. They used a radio frequency that was monitored by aircraft as opposed to satellites. With that kind of beacon if you were in a part of the ocean not overflown by aircraft you were out of luck, ie best to have to abandon ship somewhere between NYC and London.
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Old 28-06-2013, 16:25   #212
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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It's always nice to back up what you say with data I was told once. I'm not against anyone on this forum. I'm too damn old for that nonsense.

I do know though when you are tired and wet and cold and seasick at times being out on the boat ain't fun. So here is something I found which deals with sailing without a rudder in case someone is ever in that situation. Also steering the boat with the sails can actually get you out of jams at times even during a slow speed dock entry if you have crew.

See page 106 of this Steven Colgate book:

Steve Colgate on Sailing - Stephen Colgate - Google Books
I'll say one last thing, you can learn a lot from small boat or catamaran sailing. We have seen that here I believe. Check it out: (the future of sailing) see the team Oracle Video.

Catamaran Racing, News & Design: Oracle AC72 x 2 Video footage
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Old 28-06-2013, 16:52   #213
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

I've been advised that a major priority for operating a cruising yacht is to know how to read off-shore, middle of the ocean, weather forecasts.
Once sailing;
No 1 is to keep the battery bank and electrical system alive and well.
No 2 is to keep your stored fuel clean and supply to the injectors well filtered plus know how to remedy when water or air gets into the fuel.
Then of course there's managing the various pumps and through-hulls etc.

Not sure how helpful it would be to sail a small race yacht around the coast.
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Old 28-06-2013, 17:53   #214
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Number one is maintain your health. Get rest when you can. Don't get fatigued. Next number 1 is keep the critical stuff working and in the place its supposed to be. Third number one is probably something like having good music or books and working electronics.
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Old 28-06-2013, 18:22   #215
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Overhangs I do not like them. Looks do not sail.

b.
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Old 28-06-2013, 18:36   #216
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Hi Thomm,
I'd suggest you buy a copy of "Seaworthiness the Forgotten Factor" by Marcaj. A great book that addresses a number of the various factors that influence seaworthiness and seakindliness.

You can ask a lot of people for their opinions, and you'll get a lot of different answers. The truth is that sailboats are all a combination of compromises. The best thing you can do is understand the hows and whys of various design features, then you can make your own decisions. The more you understand the better they'll be.

If you read Marcaj and take the time to understand him I promise you you'll find it worthwhile. He is a national champ sailor (Finn 15s I think), a recognized aerodynamicist, author of texts on aero and hydrdynamics, and a funny and clear thinking guy.

Good luck to you in your quest. I've spent a lot of time sailing small cats too, they are a blast. Everybody is looking for different things in a cruising boat. Sea kindliness is important to me, I think it is under rated.

Cheers, Paul
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Old 28-06-2013, 18:47   #217
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Overhangs I do not like them. Looks do not sail.

b.
Sorry you dont like overhangs and they sure don't promote speed. But they sure make one heck of a good ole cruiser! Many boats of the era of overhangs and cut away full keels make quite sea kindly and great sailing boats, especially on blustery days.

I sure like the looks of the old Americas cup boats with huge overhangs...quite easy on the eyes

I am also like the look of the BCC 28 and that style of boat, quite long waterline for a given boat length....those old salty looking vessels sail quite well as I understand. Never had pleasure of sailing one.

To each is own.
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Old 28-06-2013, 21:45   #218
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Dumnmad, the priorities you list are very important, but small boat sailing will teach or sharpen up your sailing skills on a slightly different level than big boat sailing, but still teach you a lot. One more priority is to be able to function when All of the priorities you listed fail.( Scenario), Bad fuel,engine wont run, batteries are dead after 2 days. You still need the very basics. The ability to handle the boat without electricity. You must be able to cook, get water from your tanks, use the head, steer the boat and navigate without the almighty electrons. Hopefully you will have budgeted money for a windvane before an auto pilot, have hand pumps for water, a manual toilet, and a stove that works without power. Your manual bilge pumps should be as good as possible, and checked at regular intervals. Most of what I have mentioned are backup systems that dont have to be depended on, on a daily basis, but become worth their weight in gold when things go wrong. ____Just my 2 cents worth.______Grant.
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Old 29-06-2013, 05:09   #219
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Hi Thomm,
I'd suggest you buy a copy of "Seaworthiness the Forgotten Factor" by Marcaj. A great book that addresses a number of the various factors that influence seaworthiness and seakindliness.

You can ask a lot of people for their opinions, and you'll get a lot of different answers. The truth is that sailboats are all a combination of compromises. The best thing you can do is understand the hows and whys of various design features, then you can make your own decisions. The more you understand the better they'll be.

If you read Marcaj and take the time to understand him I promise you you'll find it worthwhile. He is a national champ sailor (Finn 15s I think), a recognized aerodynamicist, author of texts on aero and hydrdynamics, and a funny and clear thinking guy.

Good luck to you in your quest. I've spent a lot of time sailing small cats too, they are a blast. Everybody is looking for different things in a cruising boat. Sea kindliness is important to me, I think it is under rated.

Cheers, Paul
Thanks. I think this book may have the answers I'm looking for. (to give me the knowledge I need to select a good offshore boat) I'm going to order it today or buy it locally.

Glancing at the book though some of the opinions have been expressed here about the racers and their "need for speed "and the cruisers that say we don't need that extra 1/2 knot. Ain't important which is true.

We have had some headed discussions here but I think it got the blood flowing and caused us to think some.
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Old 29-06-2013, 05:36   #220
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Here's a good video that shows what I was explaining in my post above: (plus it shows the aid of body weight placement)

LOL, try that on a large (46') boat on big seas with heavy winds :-)
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Old 29-06-2013, 05:56   #221
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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LOL, try that on a large (46') boat on big seas with heavy winds :-)
I won't argue with you since you've been through it. But in your PM (thanks for sending that BTW) you said " if the seas had calmed down a bit maybe we could have sailed." Right? Would more crew members have helped?

Glad you guys made it in safely.
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Old 29-06-2013, 05:57   #222
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Tell you what, Tom, why not remove your rudder and give your "heaving to" scheme a try in normal sea conditions and report back to us.

From my experience, you will not be able to achieve anything like being hove to and stopped without a rudder.

But then, I've never raced beach cats, so what do I know?

Jim
LOL, ya heave to w/o a rudder :-)
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Old 29-06-2013, 06:16   #223
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I won't argue with you since you've been through it. But in your PM (thanks for sending that BTW) you said " if the seas had calmed down a bit maybe we could have sailed." Right? Would more crew members have helped?

Glad you guys made it in safely.
It may have been possible. Rather not have to try :-). No, we had sufficient crew. Boat size, keel type and weather conditions were the biggest hurdles...
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Old 29-06-2013, 06:35   #224
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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LOL, ya heave to w/o a rudder :-)
I'm sailing today in a bit. I'm not going to remove my rudder, but I'll play around with heaving too with the rudder centered (like an extension of the full keel) I can only experiment in the conditions available though.

You did say boat type may have played a part also.

Btw, thanks for coming online and giving your views even if I do have to take a pounding because of them. I'm not against gaining knowledge.

You're a darn celebrity around here.

Jeez, the information highway we have these days is awesome. Btw, Maybe you could tell them who you are.

That's a good story you told. Are you going to post it?
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Old 29-06-2013, 15:05   #225
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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I'm sailing today in a bit. I'm not going to remove my rudder, but I'll play around with heaving too with the rudder centered (like an extension of the full keel) I can only experiment in the conditions available though.

You did say boat type may have played a part also.

Btw, thanks for coming online and giving your views even if I do have to take a pounding because of them. I'm not against gaining knowledge.

You're a darn celebrity around here.

Jeez, the information highway we have these days is awesome. Btw, Maybe you could tell them who you are.

That's a good story you told. Are you going to post it?
I got the idea for my "Lost Rudder" scenario from another thread I was reading a few days ago on this forum. It was about a guy that had actually lost his rudder north of the Bahamas. His brother or friend did the thread asking for help.

The above posts were from the guy that was actually in that situation....on the boat. I damn sure wasn't going to argue with him after what he went through. Btw, he said they tried everything. A very polite individual also.

All I know is this...... like I told Jim before, I'm not heave too expert. But I can turn your bow into the wind for you as long as the main will hold up.
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