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Old 27-06-2013, 17:35   #196
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by Don L View Post
What I'm saying is I'm glad you like you boat, I really am! And it doesn't matter that I wouldn't like like it, which is why I don't have one.

But yes, in my opinion you are sailing around in a "primative, little, tight, skinny boat". Maybe you got confused about boats being a "she"
thats what I was thinking,shes sexy..
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Old 27-06-2013, 17:42   #197
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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What? after all this................maybe I just misunderstood what you were trying to say.
I thought you knew everything about a cruising boat, what part don't you understand?
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Old 27-06-2013, 18:19   #198
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Yes. BUT when I read that book I read their message in a slightly different way.

b.
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Old 27-06-2013, 18:23   #199
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Thomm, stop tossing out bait! They keep falling for it , hook , line, and sinker. You must be laughing your butt off. Have fun with your nice small cruising boat.____Grant.
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Old 27-06-2013, 18:49   #200
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

After a lifetime on motor boats, Up to 25 feet, Turn the key and go where ever you want to,

My Paper Tiger was fun, on the lake I learnt to sail it on, the wind was very iffy,

So therefore, My little Cat would end up on the grass sometimes, as I could not stop it when parking and getting hit with a sudden gust,

Straight up and over the little dock they have there, Just patch it up with Fibreglass before I take it out the next time, You cant do that in the middle of the ocean,

Beach cats are very good to learn the wind and how to get your boat around with it,

Pitchpoling on a little Cat is fun, Going over sideways is fun, 5 minutes and she's upright again and your off sailing again, Fun Fun Fun,

On my bigger Cat, Neither Pitchpoling or Over Sideways is just not an option,

Both are constantly on my mind, When sailing the Gemini, I have had the Gemini over sideways to about 70 degrees, Lee side centre board was down and Dug in, Thats Scary,

That is not fun, Especially 200 miles from the nearest land,

The Gemini, at 34 feet and the Paper Tiger at 14 feet, are two very different boats, Very Very different to sail,

Beach Cat, = 6 hours constant day sailing, Max, On nice sunny days,

Blue Water Cat, = Minimum usually, 2 weeks, 24/7 sailing, Irrespective of weather your caught in,

I personally prefer to run with the wind and waves, Than heaving too, or heading into the wind,

Heaving too and heading into the wind pounds my boat severely, So I do avoid both if I can,

I did start out on a Hobie 14 footer before I bought my 14 foot Tiger,

Driving a Gemini with out rudders for any distance would kill you from physical exertion,

This is only my personal experience on Hobies, Paper Tiger and a Gemini,
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Old 27-06-2013, 21:02   #201
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Originally Posted by Don L View Post

I think we know what boat is right for you:

- a 1970s boat about 30' (builder should be out of business for at less 20 years now so the boat can claim "quality", and after all these boats for the most haven't been made in a long time)
- 8.5' beam
- full keel
- 3" thick hull (no one knew how to design strength back then so just went with mass)
- barn door rudder (but take it off as it doesn't steer worth crap and who needs it anyway, don't need no stupid rudder)
- no engine
- alcohol stove (tradition)
- random wood scarp coring under the screwed on teak deck (leakage helps keep interior cool)
- cast iron tanks that are really installed well because you aren't ever going to get able to get to them)
- cockpit about 2'x3' with 2 scuppers to hopefully drain it
- traveler in the cockpit
- boom about 5' height to you when standing in the cockpit
- 15# fisherman anchor with 50' total rode (because hey you can get in real close)
- small v-berth, that is for storage of food because you are going to be "out there" quite a while
-shower (it is for foul weather jacket because you aren't going to be able to use)
- bucket (no head) because the tank leaked and you couldn't get to it
- 3 can openers because they will be real important as you will have to open a lot of cans without any refrigeration

Now granted some of these these things I've just guessed at because they go with other items.

I want to encourage you to get this boat! That is how others get to move up after they sell the boat they don't like so they can buy a modern boat.

What is holding you back? I hope it isn't anyone on CFs approval.
Sounds like you described a proper sea boat...not a floating condo. I believe Tom has one of these perfect sea boats you just described, bristol 27.

alot of what you mock about older boat not having are simply nice to have items, not necessity. One of the areas I believe older boats such as my Alberg 30 falls short and you do touch on it is tankage. But that can be fixed.

You mention refrigeration. What are you gonna do on your frig shits in the middle of a passage and you don't have the required 3 can openers that my Alberg came with? Or the non perishable food stored as the sailor on the 1970ish and since dawn of time had, what then?

You mention tanks and ability to get to them... funny you should bring that point up. How many tanks have you tried to remove from your modern boat? I saw a hunter washed you on beach here a few years ago after Irene. CG literally cut his tanks out because they were so hard to get to....maybe yours are more accessible. Idk. My watertank is built into hull liner, I am adding a bladder midships under sole...very easy to get to and holding tank is out in 10 min removal job....although holding really not needed on a boat on an offshore passage.... tied to the dock I see where a big holding tank would be nice to have. I usually just walk up to the rest rooms when at dock.. I need the exercise!

I don't think many boats 70's, 80's...2013 come with proper ground tackle...so I think all boats would need to be upgraded.

Anyway, I am sure there is a proper blue water boat made to fit every sailor. Your hunter fits you...and makes you feel safe at sea....my Alberg while slow and no very roomy gives my a nice cozy feeling out there on the water...different strokes for different folks....BTW I like my rudder and hope it doesn't fall off. But just in case it does a am hoping my windvane will work for some sort of emergency steering.
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Old 27-06-2013, 22:12   #202
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by Cruiser2B View Post
Sounds like you described a proper sea boat...not a floating condo. I believe Tom has one of these perfect sea boats you just described, bristol 27.

alot of what you mock about older boat not having are simply nice to have items, not necessity. One of the areas I believe older boats such as my Alberg 30 falls short and you do touch on it is tankage. But that can be fixed.

You mention refrigeration. What are you gonna do on your frig shits in the middle of a passage and you don't have the required 3 can openers that my Alberg came with? Or the non perishable food stored as the sailor on the 1970ish and since dawn of time had, what then?

You mention tanks and ability to get to them... funny you should bring that point up. How many tanks have you tried to remove from your modern boat? I saw a hunter washed you on beach here a few years ago after Irene. CG literally cut his tanks out because they were so hard to get to....maybe yours are more accessible. Idk. My watertank is built into hull liner, I am adding a bladder midships under sole...very easy to get to and holding tank is out in 10 min removal job....although holding really not needed on a boat on an offshore passage.... tied to the dock I see where a big holding tank would be nice to have. I usually just walk up to the rest rooms when at dock.. I need the exercise!

I don't think many boats 70's, 80's...2013 come with proper ground tackle...so I think all boats would need to be upgraded.

Anyway, I am sure there is a proper blue water boat made to fit every sailor. Your hunter fits you...and makes you feel safe at sea....my Alberg while slow and no very roomy gives my a nice cozy feeling out there on the water...different strokes for different folks....BTW I like my rudder and hope it doesn't fall off. But just in case it does a am hoping my windvane will work for some sort of emergency steering.
Saw your boat on your blog,thats a proper sea going vessel you have there and she is very pretty to boot..good luck in your venture..
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Old 27-06-2013, 22:46   #203
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Saw your boat on your blog,thats a proper sea going vessel you have there and she is very pretty to boot..good luck in your venture..
Thank you, I love the look of the older boats, long overhang boats. I also love the old wooden boats but they do not fit into my budget or maintenance plan boat but I also like the way they sail. Slow and steady...

She looks good from a far. She is and has been used. She could stand a paint job and some new toe rails...but that is all cosmetic and trivial to me....although i do need to get those speakers out of cockpit...last owner thought she was a party barge I guess. I just love sailing her. Prolly gonna haul her to house this year, for a year or so, for some refit work....check back on blog and follow along
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Old 28-06-2013, 04:10   #204
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I find it rather amusing that a bloke who self admits his experience with Hobie cats on 20 knots , sailing off the beach is arguing techniques about larger boats offshore against a series of acknowledged people with such specific experience , who are all disagreeing with him.

Firstly 20 knots offshore is a light breeze , secondly you keep thinking your in flat onshore style water.

Offshore in a breeze the waves are the key thing that dictate progress. Trying running downhill on a dirty wave train without a rudder. ( drogues or not ) come back to us when you're tried it , then argue with us ( and we' ll listen! )

I'm with Dockhead , what a silly thread.
Rudder security is a ridiculous concern , there are very few failures each year , its simply not an issue irrespective of what rudder construction.

pS Steve Callaghan did not have an EPIRB. I beleive his adventure predates COSPAR SARsAT

Today the average wait in a liferaft is 4 days irrespective of location.

Dave

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I'm not saying I know everything. I'm saying I know what the sails can make the boat do. I can park it , turn it etc without water flow over the rudder. Also let's you know which sail is causing the weather helm and why if that sail is older it causes more weather helm.

Your the guy that doesn't like book learning right? Steven Callahan did have an EPIRB btw:

Steven Callahan : People.com

I doubt you'll read this so here:

Seven times in the course of the 76-day drift he spotted ships, twice within a mile. He fired his flare gun but there was no one on deck to see it. He wasn't bitter. "That's the way it is," he says. "My anger and frustration couldn't bring them topside to see me." Three times he turned on his EPIRB (emergency position-indicating radio beacon), hoping its signal would reach ships or aircraft. To no avail. Finally, on the night of April 20, he saw the glow of lights on the horizon before him. An island. By dawn he could see it, some 10 miles dead ahead, rising black-green in the rolling sea, a thin line of surf creaming at the foot of dark cliffs. Anxiously, Callahan began to wrap himself in plastic sheets to prepare for what looked like a rough ride through the surf, which in his weakened condition could have proved the most dangerous part of his journey.

He also had the EPIRB on the first few days I believe.

Airline pilots begin flying on very small planes. keep that in mind
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Old 28-06-2013, 04:17   #205
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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I thought you knew everything about a cruising boat, what part don't you understand?
I didn't understand the part where you said the 135% jib when unrolled caused weather helm
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Old 28-06-2013, 04:33   #206
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Thomm, stop tossing out bait! They keep falling for it , hook , line, and sinker. You must be laughing your butt off. Have fun with your nice small cruising boat.____Grant.
Thanks Grant. I do want some of their knowledge though. Let's face it racing catamaran guys and girls do more screwing around with their boats as far as stopping, starting, parking, backing up, holding still in high wind (the thing weighs 200lbs folks and the only ballast is you so 20 is high)

whereas the big boats are usually cruising along with other things to worry about.

I bought my boat at a marina where I could only come and go one hour either side of the high tide. (didn't know that when I bought it) The creek was so narrow (about 3 miles to the bay) even I (just kidding) didn't have room enough to sail it in or out if tacking was involved.

Then there's the anchoring. One night a month after I bought the boat, I couldn't come in (trans stuck in reverse, linkage problem I later discovered. plus the tide) so I basically anchored on the edge of the bay in the open worrying about my anchoring skills. It was blowing 28 plus. I had maybe 200 yards of room to leeward. I chunked over this beast on the bow which turned out to be a 20 lb CQR and lots of line. The damn thing held. It was a rough night though. Also since the shrouds were lose. I hadn't adjusted them yet.

I examined that anchor after I got back in. The old salt that owed the boat before me had safety wired the bolt/shackle from the chain to the anchor. I thought that was a good idea. (and there was lots of chain) Since then that anchor has saved me and my boat many times. so that was an important lesson. Also there was another big ole Bruce anchor on board and another line and chain in a 5 gallon bucket in the lazarette) plus 3 danforths!

I coulda sailed in on my cat (3-4') daggerboards pulled up. We don't anchor cats so my anchoring experience was from fishing as a kid..............on 16'-17' boats out in the bay a ways where it wasn't important.

So, I thing a mutual exchange of ideas would be good if we can turn down the egomometer. (on both sides)

Tom
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Old 28-06-2013, 04:49   #207
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
After a lifetime on motor boats, Up to 25 feet, Turn the key and go where ever you want to,

My Paper Tiger was fun, on the lake I learnt to sail it on, the wind was very iffy,

So therefore, My little Cat would end up on the grass sometimes, as I could not stop it when parking and getting hit with a sudden gust,

Straight up and over the little dock they have there, Just patch it up with Fibreglass before I take it out the next time, You cant do that in the middle of the ocean,

Beach cats are very good to learn the wind and how to get your boat around with it,

Pitchpoling on a little Cat is fun, Going over sideways is fun, 5 minutes and she's upright again and your off sailing again, Fun Fun Fun,

On my bigger Cat, Neither Pitchpoling or Over Sideways is just not an option,

Both are constantly on my mind, When sailing the Gemini, I have had the Gemini over sideways to about 70 degrees, Lee side centre board was down and Dug in, Thats Scary,

That is not fun, Especially 200 miles from the nearest land,

The Gemini, at 34 feet and the Paper Tiger at 14 feet, are two very different boats, Very Very different to sail,

Beach Cat, = 6 hours constant day sailing, Max, On nice sunny days,

Blue Water Cat, = Minimum usually, 2 weeks, 24/7 sailing, Irrespective of weather your caught in,

I personally prefer to run with the wind and waves, Than heaving too, or heading into the wind,

Heaving too and heading into the wind pounds my boat severely, So I do avoid both if I can,

I did start out on a Hobie 14 footer before I bought my 14 foot Tiger,

Driving a Gemini with out rudders for any distance would kill you from physical exertion,

This is only my personal experience on Hobies, Paper Tiger and a Gemini,
I won't argue with you. I'll just say that when racing catamarans and on the starting line parked with 20-40 other boats, you better not let a wind gust take your boat away or you will be paying for the repairs on lots of other boats plus an asswhuppin could be invovled. (we're talking boats from a value of $5,000- $20,000 plus) Btw, the boats are just a few feet apart on the line.

And that is just the first start. You have 4-6 more starts to do before the weekend is over. Do that 300-450 times in a formal setting which doesn't include practice and you get pretty good at watching the water and wind that is coming your way (you have to watch the water ahead in that situation so you can "see" the gust before it gets to you)

You also do this the entire race (watch the water for gusts) so you can feather up a bit (turn into a big lifting wind) before the gusts lifts your boat up which slows you down too much causing you to lose the race.

Catamaran race start photo:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...8Q9QEwCA&dur=1
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Old 28-06-2013, 07:13   #208
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Another thing about catamaran racing, we don't reef! There are no reef points on these sails that I have seen. You use mast rake, diamond wire tension to adjust the mast prebend (yes, I've seen guys cranking in more between races ....... ) downhaul, outhaul, and traveler positioning to deal with it. (and mast rotation)
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Old 28-06-2013, 13:54   #209
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by Cruiser2B View Post
Thank you, I love the look of the older boats, long overhang boats. I also love the old wooden boats but they do not fit into my budget or maintenance plan boat but I also like the way they sail. Slow and steady...

She looks good from a far. She is and has been used. She could stand a paint job and some new toe rails...but that is all cosmetic and trivial to me....although i do need to get those speakers out of cockpit...last owner thought she was a party barge I guess. I just love sailing her. Prolly gonna haul her to house this year, for a year or so, for some refit work....check back on blog and follow along
I too perfer the older lines but would not have a problem with a straight bow ,flat sheer,rounded bottom etc. if one presented itself at the "right time"..I mostly tease about this design line because its sooo easy..As long as it moves around with mostly wind ,I can find something to like about it..good luck
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Old 28-06-2013, 15:30   #210
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

It's always nice to back up what you say with data I was told once. I'm not against anyone on this forum. I'm too damn old for that nonsense.

I do know though when you are tired and wet and cold and seasick at times being out on the boat ain't fun. So here is something I found which deals with sailing without a rudder in case someone is ever in that situation. Also steering the boat with the sails can actually get you out of jams at times even during a slow speed dock entry if you have crew.

See page 106 of this Steven Colgate book:

Steve Colgate on Sailing - Stephen Colgate - Google Books
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