Blue Water Boats ........Again.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Let's try this scenario: Let's say I lost. (scratch that) Let's say you lost the rudder "somehow" off your big ole westsail 32. You are north of the Bahamas a couple hundred miles or so. So you throw up a couple head sails and drag a drogue off the stern. The wind is SE at 25 knots. I'm thinking you are headed home to America!.............sailing, steering, etc!

That's a convenient scenariio -- the time that issues should happen. And when they occur in more inconvenient times, not all is good. How about the same place and the winds are 35kts NNE. Dragging a drogue while trying to cross the GS is not going to work well. You can't have a stream moving N at 4kts while you try and go E at 2kts.

I'm starting agree Dockhead, this is a silly discussion.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Paul L

That's a convenient scenariio -- the time that issues should happen. And when they occur in more inconvenient times, not all is good. How about the same place and the winds are 35kts NNE. Dragging a drogue while trying to cross the GS is not going to work well. You can't have a stream moving N at 4kts while you try and go E at 2kts.

I'm starting agree Dockhead, this is a silly discussion.

Sure it's silly. My point is you should know what the sails can do on your (sloop rigged boat if that is what you are sailing) boat which not all sailors seem to know.

Are we still on the Westsail 32 though? I hope so in those 35 kt NNE winds

I wouldn't want to mess with (try going north) the GS if the wind is NNE. (or coming from any northerly direction) I'd probably heave too or something and wait for a better wind. Or maybe turn back south using a small headsail and head back to the Bahamas. Of course, I might try raising a reefed main for directional control after the wind laid down some.

But I'd try a few things ..............

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by thomm225

(...)

Let's say you lost the rudder "somehow" off your big ole westsail 32. You are north of the Bahamas a couple hundred miles or so. So you throw up a couple head sails and drag a drogue off the stern. The wind is SE at 25 knots. I'm thinking you are headed home to America!.............sailing, steering, etc!

You glibly glide over the fact (figure of speech, NOT a personal remark ;-)) that sustained SE 25 kts will kick up waves that may/will make it very difficult to control the boat. An ocean is not a lake. It is the waves that dictate your choices and your possibilities, as well as, at times, your fate.

This much said, in a Westsail type of hull, I would make all and any efforts to try (and possibly) guide the boat towards a sandy stretch of lee shore. Once inshore a tow might possibly be arranged.

Please note that most people today sail boats that have hull configurations much different from a typical 'Westsail' hull. Most of today's cruisers have split foils. Losing one of them will throw the hull dynamics completely off ballance.

We can throw many unlikely scenarios as a proof that 'it can be done'. But if we look at real boats in real conditions we can see that our proof holds false for huge majority of boats/crews out there.

b.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Sure it's silly. My point is you should know what the sails can do on your (sloop rigged boat if that is what you are sailing) boat which not all sailors seem to know.

Are we still on the Westsail 32 though? I hope so in those 35 kt NNE winds

I wouldn't want to mess with (try going north) the GS if the wind is NNE. (or coming from any northerly direction) I'd probably heave too or something and wait for a better wind. Or maybe turn back south using a small headsail and head back to the Bahamas. Of course, I might try raising a reefed main for directional control after the wind laid down some.

But I'd try a few things ..............

Just curious how you propose to get your rudderless Westsail to heave to?

Most techniques for doing so rely upon the rudder being used to keep the boat from sailing off downwind.

Cheers,

Jim

[Mr B]

My Gemini steering cables exploded out of the case it is in, I tied a rope to the motor and steered that way to the nearest beach,

As for sailing it with the sails, Forget it, Maybe out in the ocean, You can use sails, But not in close proximity to the beach and rocks,

[highseas]

Seems like rudder durability and self tending steering characteristics are the most important factors in bluewater.What you want is a full keel cruiser with wheel steering(less tiring)and a completety independent,auxillary self steering set up on transom.Hydrovane or any homemade trimtab design.For this reason stern hung rudders not so good because there is nowhere to install independent system.

[Blue Crab]

Hey Tom, just an editorial note. IMO the thread has taken on the combative/argumentative/know-it-all slant that another poster has pretty much owned of late. Not a good spot to be in.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Hey Tom, just an editorial note. IMO the thread has taken on the combative/argumentative/know-it-all slant that another poster has pretty much owned of late. Not a good spot to be in.

IMO this thread is so far off what it started as that anyone new who starts to read it for what it was is going to just stop reading

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

You glibly glide over the fact (figure of speech, NOT a personal remark ;-)) that sustained SE 25 kts will kick up waves that may/will make it very difficult to control the boat. An ocean is not a lake. It is the waves that dictate your choices and your possibilities, as well as, at times, your fate.

This much said, in a Westsail type of hull, I would make all and any efforts to try (and possibly) guide the boat towards a sandy stretch of lee shore. Once inshore a tow might possibly be arranged.

Please note that most people today sail boats that have hull configurations much different from a typical 'Westsail' hull. Most of today's cruisers have split foils. Losing one of them will throw the hull dynamics completely off ballance.

We can throw many unlikely scenarios as a proof that 'it can be done'. But if we look at real boats in real conditions we can see that our proof holds false for huge majority of boats/crews out there.

b.

Thanks!

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Just curious how you propose to get your rudderless Westsail to heave to?

Most techniques for doing so rely upon the rudder being used to keep the boat from sailing off downwind.

Cheers,

Jim

You use the main to keep the boat pointing into the wind then play the jib for best results before you lock it in so you will not keep crossing through the eye of the wind.

I'm no heave too expert, but I do know the main when sheeted in will cause the bow of the boat to go toward the wind. (with the jib eased)

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Hey Tom, just an editorial note. IMO the thread has taken on the combative/argumentative/know-it-all slant that another poster has pretty much owned of late. Not a good spot to be in.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll tone it down. I became so busy defending myself earlier in the thread that some where along the line I decide to push back a bit. (maybe too much)

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by thomm225

You use the main to keep the boat pointing into the wind then play the jib for best results before you lock it in so you will not keep crossing through the eye of the wind.

I'm no heave too expert, but I do know the main when sheeted in will cause the bow of the boat to go toward the wind. (with the jib eased)

Tell you what, Tom, why not remove your rudder and give your "heaving to" scheme a try in normal sea conditions and report back to us.

From my experience, you will not be able to achieve anything like being hove to and stopped without a rudder.

But then, I've never raced beach cats, so what do I know?

Jim

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Just curious how you propose to get your rudderless Westsail to heave to?

Most techniques for doing so rely upon the rudder being used to keep the boat from sailing off downwind.

Cheers,

Jim

Just to add a little backup, like I said I'm no heave too expert. What I know again is mostly from racing. You usually get to the start line a little early .... 30 seconds to a minute and a half and "park." (keep in mind when you do this there are boats on either side of you so there's no place to go and other skippers do not want you hitting their boats) It would be nice to hit the line at speed but the other boats will usually block you.

When parked the rudders usually don't help much since you aren't moving so you work the sails to hold position. Were talking winds say 5 to around 20knots. I've never seen a race start in conditions above or below these numbers.

I can do it but again I'm not an expert. The olympic sailors though are. I once saw maybe 20 Tornado Catamarans parked all in a row right on the line within a few feet of each other. It was a pretty cool thing to see.

Now I'd like to combine that knowledge with what you ocean sailors know and I think this will all be worthwhile and not so silly.

Tom

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by highseas

Seems like rudder durability and self tending steering characteristics are the most important factors in bluewater.What you want is a full keel cruiser with wheel steering(less tiring)and a completety independent,auxillary self steering set up on transom.Hydrovane or any homemade trimtab design.For this reason stern hung rudders not so good because there is nowhere to install independent system.

IMHO, and with full respect to other experiences and opinions:

Rudder design and built quality are of paramount importance in open water sailing.

Self-tending steering characteristics I am not quite sure though. IMOCAs, MINIs, as well as plethora of less extreme racers make extended passages in most extreme conditions while being pushed hard to the limits and beyond. Can't see them getting into much more trouble than many more conservative 'cruising' designs have.

Outboard rudders no limitation for (even further out-) outboard, independent self-steering. I know because this is our configuration.

And, in turn, independent windvanes as means of emergency steering are a joke. I know because I have tried. It does not work, unless the main rudder IS STILL there, locked amidship.

I think an auxiliary rudder, outboard, windvane may be of some help if the boat is of the all-keel type. The point is very many boats are not.

I think full, long keel is fine for cruising AND SO ARE other keels also combined with high aspect rudder foils. It is (IMHO!) all in good design, good build and proper maintenance and, sure thing - in good seamanship and sea-sense of her crew.

Ciao,
b.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Just curious how you propose to get your rudderless Westsail to heave to?

Most techniques for doing so rely upon the rudder being used to keep the boat from sailing off downwind.

Cheers,

Jim

With a sea anchor at the bow i guess is posible...