Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 27-06-2013, 07:17   #166
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2005
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 4,580
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Let's try this scenario: Let's say I lost. (scratch that) Let's say you lost the rudder "somehow" off your big ole westsail 32. You are north of the Bahamas a couple hundred miles or so. So you throw up a couple head sails and drag a drogue off the stern. The wind is SE at 25 knots. I'm thinking you are headed home to America!.............sailing, steering, etc!
That's a convenient scenariio -- the time that issues should happen. And when they occur in more inconvenient times, not all is good. How about the same place and the winds are 35kts NNE. Dragging a drogue while trying to cross the GS is not going to work well. You can't have a stream moving N at 4kts while you try and go E at 2kts.

I'm starting agree Dockhead, this is a silly discussion.
__________________

__________________
Paul L
http://svjeorgia.blogspot.com
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2013, 07:39   #167
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,456
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
That's a convenient scenariio -- the time that issues should happen. And when they occur in more inconvenient times, not all is good. How about the same place and the winds are 35kts NNE. Dragging a drogue while trying to cross the GS is not going to work well. You can't have a stream moving N at 4kts while you try and go E at 2kts.

I'm starting agree Dockhead, this is a silly discussion.
Sure it's silly. My point is you should know what the sails can do on your (sloop rigged boat if that is what you are sailing) boat which not all sailors seem to know.

Are we still on the Westsail 32 though? I hope so in those 35 kt NNE winds

I wouldn't want to mess with (try going north) the GS if the wind is NNE. (or coming from any northerly direction) I'd probably heave too or something and wait for a better wind. Or maybe turn back south using a small headsail and head back to the Bahamas. Of course, I might try raising a reefed main for directional control after the wind laid down some.

But I'd try a few things ..............
__________________

__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2013, 07:56   #168
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post

(...)

Let's say you lost the rudder "somehow" off your big ole westsail 32. You are north of the Bahamas a couple hundred miles or so. So you throw up a couple head sails and drag a drogue off the stern. The wind is SE at 25 knots. I'm thinking you are headed home to America!.............sailing, steering, etc!
You glibly glide over the fact (figure of speech, NOT a personal remark ;-)) that sustained SE 25 kts will kick up waves that may/will make it very difficult to control the boat. An ocean is not a lake. It is the waves that dictate your choices and your possibilities, as well as, at times, your fate.

This much said, in a Westsail type of hull, I would make all and any efforts to try (and possibly) guide the boat towards a sandy stretch of lee shore. Once inshore a tow might possibly be arranged.

Please note that most people today sail boats that have hull configurations much different from a typical 'Westsail' hull. Most of today's cruisers have split foils. Losing one of them will throw the hull dynamics completely off ballance.

We can throw many unlikely scenarios as a proof that 'it can be done'. But if we look at real boats in real conditions we can see that our proof holds false for huge majority of boats/crews out there.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2013, 08:09   #169
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,450
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Sure it's silly. My point is you should know what the sails can do on your (sloop rigged boat if that is what you are sailing) boat which not all sailors seem to know.

Are we still on the Westsail 32 though? I hope so in those 35 kt NNE winds

I wouldn't want to mess with (try going north) the GS if the wind is NNE. (or coming from any northerly direction) I'd probably heave too or something and wait for a better wind. Or maybe turn back south using a small headsail and head back to the Bahamas. Of course, I might try raising a reefed main for directional control after the wind laid down some.

But I'd try a few things ..............
Just curious how you propose to get your rudderless Westsail to heave to?

Most techniques for doing so rely upon the rudder being used to keep the boat from sailing off downwind.

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2013, 08:37   #170
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 1,616
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

My Gemini steering cables exploded out of the case it is in, I tied a rope to the motor and steered that way to the nearest beach,

As for sailing it with the sails, Forget it, Maybe out in the ocean, You can use sails, But not in close proximity to the beach and rocks,
__________________
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2013, 08:38   #171
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Location: British Columbia, Mexico
Boat: S&S Hughes 38
Posts: 837
Images: 23
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Seems like rudder durability and self tending steering characteristics are the most important factors in bluewater.What you want is a full keel cruiser with wheel steering(less tiring)and a completety independent,auxillary self steering set up on transom.Hydrovane or any homemade trimtab design.For this reason stern hung rudders not so good because there is nowhere to install independent system.
__________________
highseas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2013, 09:44   #172
Registered User
 
Blue Crab's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hurricane Highway
Boat: Cal 29
Posts: 3,882
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Hey Tom, just an editorial note. IMO the thread has taken on the combative/argumentative/know-it-all slant that another poster has pretty much owned of late. Not a good spot to be in.
__________________
Blue Crab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2013, 10:56   #173
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,311
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
Hey Tom, just an editorial note. IMO the thread has taken on the combative/argumentative/know-it-all slant that another poster has pretty much owned of late. Not a good spot to be in.
IMO this thread is so far off what it started as that anyone new who starts to read it for what it was is going to just stop reading
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2013, 11:36   #174
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,456
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
You glibly glide over the fact (figure of speech, NOT a personal remark ;-)) that sustained SE 25 kts will kick up waves that may/will make it very difficult to control the boat. An ocean is not a lake. It is the waves that dictate your choices and your possibilities, as well as, at times, your fate.

This much said, in a Westsail type of hull, I would make all and any efforts to try (and possibly) guide the boat towards a sandy stretch of lee shore. Once inshore a tow might possibly be arranged.

Please note that most people today sail boats that have hull configurations much different from a typical 'Westsail' hull. Most of today's cruisers have split foils. Losing one of them will throw the hull dynamics completely off ballance.

We can throw many unlikely scenarios as a proof that 'it can be done'. But if we look at real boats in real conditions we can see that our proof holds false for huge majority of boats/crews out there.

b.
Thanks!
__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2013, 11:46   #175
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,456
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Just curious how you propose to get your rudderless Westsail to heave to?

Most techniques for doing so rely upon the rudder being used to keep the boat from sailing off downwind.

Cheers,

Jim
You use the main to keep the boat pointing into the wind then play the jib for best results before you lock it in so you will not keep crossing through the eye of the wind.

I'm no heave too expert, but I do know the main when sheeted in will cause the bow of the boat to go toward the wind. (with the jib eased)
__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2013, 11:53   #176
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,456
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
Hey Tom, just an editorial note. IMO the thread has taken on the combative/argumentative/know-it-all slant that another poster has pretty much owned of late. Not a good spot to be in.
Thanks for pointing that out. I'll tone it down. I became so busy defending myself earlier in the thread that some where along the line I decide to push back a bit. (maybe too much)
__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2013, 12:13   #177
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,450
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
You use the main to keep the boat pointing into the wind then play the jib for best results before you lock it in so you will not keep crossing through the eye of the wind.

I'm no heave too expert, but I do know the main when sheeted in will cause the bow of the boat to go toward the wind. (with the jib eased)
Tell you what, Tom, why not remove your rudder and give your "heaving to" scheme a try in normal sea conditions and report back to us.

From my experience, you will not be able to achieve anything like being hove to and stopped without a rudder.

But then, I've never raced beach cats, so what do I know?

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2013, 12:21   #178
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,456
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Just curious how you propose to get your rudderless Westsail to heave to?

Most techniques for doing so rely upon the rudder being used to keep the boat from sailing off downwind.

Cheers,

Jim
Just to add a little backup, like I said I'm no heave too expert. What I know again is mostly from racing. You usually get to the start line a little early .... 30 seconds to a minute and a half and "park." (keep in mind when you do this there are boats on either side of you so there's no place to go and other skippers do not want you hitting their boats) It would be nice to hit the line at speed but the other boats will usually block you.

When parked the rudders usually don't help much since you aren't moving so you work the sails to hold position. Were talking winds say 5 to around 20knots. I've never seen a race start in conditions above or below these numbers.

I can do it but again I'm not an expert. The olympic sailors though are. I once saw maybe 20 Tornado Catamarans parked all in a row right on the line within a few feet of each other. It was a pretty cool thing to see.

Now I'd like to combine that knowledge with what you ocean sailors know and I think this will all be worthwhile and not so silly.

Tom
__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2013, 12:22   #179
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by highseas View Post
Seems like rudder durability and self tending steering characteristics are the most important factors in bluewater.What you want is a full keel cruiser with wheel steering(less tiring)and a completety independent,auxillary self steering set up on transom.Hydrovane or any homemade trimtab design.For this reason stern hung rudders not so good because there is nowhere to install independent system.
IMHO, and with full respect to other experiences and opinions:

Rudder design and built quality are of paramount importance in open water sailing.

Self-tending steering characteristics I am not quite sure though. IMOCAs, MINIs, as well as plethora of less extreme racers make extended passages in most extreme conditions while being pushed hard to the limits and beyond. Can't see them getting into much more trouble than many more conservative 'cruising' designs have.

Outboard rudders no limitation for (even further out-) outboard, independent self-steering. I know because this is our configuration.

And, in turn, independent windvanes as means of emergency steering are a joke. I know because I have tried. It does not work, unless the main rudder IS STILL there, locked amidship.

I think an auxiliary rudder, outboard, windvane may be of some help if the boat is of the all-keel type. The point is very many boats are not.

I think full, long keel is fine for cruising AND SO ARE other keels also combined with high aspect rudder foils. It is (IMHO!) all in good design, good build and proper maintenance and, sure thing - in good seamanship and sea-sense of her crew.

Ciao,
b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2013, 12:39   #180
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Just curious how you propose to get your rudderless Westsail to heave to?

Most techniques for doing so rely upon the rudder being used to keep the boat from sailing off downwind.

Cheers,

Jim

With a sea anchor at the bow i guess is posible...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	components.gif
Views:	822
Size:	7.3 KB
ID:	63248  
__________________

__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
water

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:53.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.