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Old 26-06-2013, 13:20   #136
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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None of us want. The point I was making was that catastrophic failures don't necssarily happen in beniegn conditions. That's one reason the simplistic book solutions often aren't practical.
Okay, but isn't it nice to know that it's possible. Have you read the book Adrift by Steven Callahan? He drifted about 3/4 the way across the Atlantic after his boat sank. He said for example if he only had some type of small sail he may have been about to cut the 76 days that he drifted in half just by using the sail in good weather. He was at 18 degrees North so was been pushed by both wind and tide I believe.

Same with the 25' seas thing if you did survive, and could rig something then maybe you could sail in when it laid down. Robin Lee Graham didn't lose a rudder but did lose his mast and jury rigged his boom as you probably know and sailed it in. (on the west coast of Africa I think)
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Old 26-06-2013, 13:23   #137
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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If I lose a rudder, I'll continue by using the other one!


cheater!!!


BTW - I bet sailing with a rudder locked in mid position (not very hard to do in calm conditions) and sailing with a missing rudder are WAY different things!
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Old 26-06-2013, 13:27   #138
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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BTW - I bet sailing with a rudder locked in mid position (not very hard to do in calm conditions) and sailing with a missing rudder are WAY different things!
Especially engineless and docking at a marina!!!

Find a book on that one! (oh yeah, TowBoatUS would have one)
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Old 26-06-2013, 13:32   #139
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Was looking at a sailor's 70's Tartan 34 while passing through Lake Huron. They are nice boats. What kind of rudder and prop protection do they have? The guy told me it had a 11000 pound displacement.

Regarding the boat, I think you are better off having a list of boats that would work for you and then waiting for one to show up in your area at the right price, right condition and the right time. Bluewaterboats.org worked for us.

We ended up with a damn fine boat, better than we think we deserve - it was just the only boat for sale in our area on our list, at the right price and in good enough shape.

If you obsessing on the exact boat you will may well end up paying too much, buying a fixer upper or even worse - never going anywhere.
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Old 26-06-2013, 14:00   #140
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Okay, but isn't it nice to know that it's possible. Have you read the book Adrift by Steven Callahan? He drifted about 3/4 the way across the Atlantic after his boat sank. He said for example if he only had some type of small sail he may have been about to cut the 76 days that he drifted in half just by using the sail in good weather. He was at 18 degrees North so was been pushed by both wind and tide I believe.

Same with the 25' seas thing if you did survive, and could rig something then maybe you could sail in when it laid down. Robin Lee Graham didn't lose a rudder but did lose his mast and jury rigged his boom as you probably know and sailed it in. (on the west coast of Africa I think)
Of course I know that with sails and boat weight you can control a small boat in easy conditions. In a class once I sailed from the slip, tacking through a long harbor channel to the Pacific and back into the slip with the rudder tied off center ship on a Soling (no engine). Nice to know, but not that useful on a bigger boat.
I'll bet Steve could have shortened the trip with an EPIRB too.
Jury rigging a mast is a lot easier in calm conditions than dealing with a lost rudder. It takes skill and endurance, but is definitely doable on a big boat.
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Old 26-06-2013, 14:08   #141
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Especially engineless and docking at a marina!!!

Find a book on that one! (oh yeah, TowBoatUS would have one)
So then you are saying you cannot sail your boat up to the end of the T dock and tie off?

I'm sure you can ..........right?. But I know at some marinas and in some areas it's hard to come in against the tide etc.

Btw, Tania Aebi had terrible troubles with her engine all the way around and had to get towed a lot.

You can also anchor off and use your kayak (of dinghy) to come into the marina. I keep a 16'6"kayak in my V berth and sometimes on deck if I know I will need it
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Old 26-06-2013, 14:13   #142
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Of course I know that with sails and boat weight you can control a small boat in easy conditions. In a class once I sailed from the slip, tacking through a long harbor channel to the Pacific and back into the slip with the rudder tied off center ship on a Soling (no engine). Nice to know, but not that useful on a bigger boat.
I'll bet Steve could have shortened the trip with an EPIRB too.
Jury rigging a mast is a lot easier in calm conditions than dealing with a lost rudder. It takes skill and endurance, but is definitely doable on a big boat.
Paul, you gotta read the book. I'm thinking you will love it. He had his EPIRB with him all 76 days. He only used it near the shipping lanes or when he thought someone might respond (after the first day or so)

Steven Callahan : People.com
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Old 26-06-2013, 14:17   #143
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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If I lose a rudder, I'll continue by using the other one!

Should I mention the story of Condor in the 2010 Pacific Cup? They had two rudders, and lost them both. Here's a writeup by the designer: Pressure Drop - Condor's First Flight: The 2010 Pacific Cup

For several days they used a bucket as a steering drogue, which kept them pointing in the general direction of Hawaii. They eventually lashed one of the rudders back on to get into the harbor. Fortunately the conditions were fairly easy, and Hawaii was downwind I was in that race, we were also the communications boat so I got to hear the details twice a day. Condor's wide stern really helped with the drogue steering ability.
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Old 26-06-2013, 14:21   #144
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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So then you are saying you cannot sail your boat up to the end of the T dock and tie off?
I'm pretty sure he meant "with a locked rudder".
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Old 26-06-2013, 14:29   #145
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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So then you are saying you cannot sail your boat up to the end of the T dock and tie off?

I'm sure you can ..........right?. But I know at some marinas and in some areas it's hard to come in against the tide etc.
Nope! Admiral won't allow it.
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Old 26-06-2013, 14:52   #146
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Nope! Admiral won't allow it.
Smart Admiral looking out for the vessel. People with big boats (who like their boat) don't sail into docks and risk the damage when there are so many other options available. Doesn't mean they can't do it, just that they are smart enough not to!
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Old 26-06-2013, 15:03   #147
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Smart Admiral looking out for the vessel. People with big boats (who like their boat) don't sail into docks and risk the damage when there are so many other options available. Doesn't mean they can't do it, just that they are smart enough not to!
Exactly. I'm waiting for the OP to learn how well gelcoat holds up against a piling when pushed by 20,000lbs doing 1/2kt.

I hope someone takes pictures.
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Old 26-06-2013, 15:11   #148
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Exactly. I'm waiting for the OP to learn how well gelcoat holds up against a piling when pushed by 20,000lbs doing 1/2kt.

I hope someone takes pictures.
Don't be an alarmist. It'll buff out
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Old 26-06-2013, 15:21   #149
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
So, in the case (of a lost or locked to center rudder) a smaller cruising boat like a 6600 lb Bristol 27 with it's full keel would be better since I know that it can be sailed at least with the rudder locked dead center. (and probably without the rudder as well)

I was once told that it was best to learn sailing on small boats (such as small racing catamarans) so you can try out this sort of thing, and I'm beginning to see the guy knew what he was talking about. It also allows you to see what happens quickly when you pull a string.
Learning on dinghies and beach cats is great. You learn a lot of things fast, which are much harder to learn on large cruising boat. Racing -- even better. I learned to sail racing 420's in college and treasure that as a great foundation for what came later.

But to assume that everything is the same on a large cruising boat = fail. Maybe 30% of it translates well. A very important 30%. Nonetheless, the other 70% you have to learn fresh.

Meanwhile, it's not a good idea to teach anyone's grandmothers how to suck eggs. This discussion about lost rudders is the height of silliness.
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Old 26-06-2013, 16:07   #150
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
Should I mention the story of Condor in the 2010 Pacific Cup? They had two rudders, and lost them both. Here's a writeup by the designer: Pressure Drop - Condor's First Flight: The 2010 Pacific Cup

For several days they used a bucket as a steering drogue, which kept them pointing in the general direction of Hawaii. They eventually lashed one of the rudders back on to get into the harbor. Fortunately the conditions were fairly easy, and Hawaii was downwind I was in that race, we were also the communications boat so I got to hear the details twice a day. Condor's wide stern really helped with the drogue steering ability.
Awesome!

Now this is the kind of story we need on this forum rather than saying no way, it can't be done. I'm going below to suck my thumb!
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