Blisters or Flooding? Which would you choose??

[Alan Wheeler]

Well yes and no. I don't think you should run scared from espeacially the pox boat. Blisters are not as bad as some, including the workyards, tend to make you believe. Many seem to think a hull with blisters has caught something as contagouse as the Black Plague.
However Sean, I would like to add, the Ticket price, should NOT/NEVER, be viewed as THE price. I would haggle and offer something way lower. Remember, there are many boats to buy. It's easy to buy a boat and much much harder to sell. Everyone is in that, errr "boat" so to speak. Vessels with things wrong like you have described, are only ever going to be bought by those looking for projects, with one view only. If it can be bought cheap, I can make a profit. The really bad boat I would consider making an offer $20K lower again. The blister boat, maybe $10K lower. Play hard, don't except the "2 wives 13 kids to support" story you will get dished out to you. Even walk away from the deal and maybe come back to the owner in a week or two and see what they think then. To look at this another way, if the boats were insured, then the insurance companies would be writing the hulls off, or getting them repaired. If not insured (most likely) and If the owners could see the market value in the hull after the repairs, then they would be doing the repairs and geting the market value. But I bet the money they are going to part out with, will make the boat over capitilized. I hope you understand my point there.
And finally, if you have time and enjoy the work, then this is a very fun way to get into a boat. I love the work I am doing on mine. It is like therapy to me

[ssullivan]

Jentine and Floridaguy:

Question: Would your advice still hold true if deal on the boat was $40K less than fair market value?

Thanks,

Sean

[ssullivan]

Wheels, you are very good at the "numbers." I'm amazed! Boat A (the one in worse condition) is hovering about $20K below asking price right now, which is a conservative $40K below what its sister ships are listed for.

Boat B is hovering at $10K below asking, which is about $30K below what its sister ships are asking. You are right on the money.

No worries about accepting the sob story on the sellers' sides... My sob story is much more compelling. We barely eeked out enough of a loan (with over 20% down) to purchase either of these - and everyone on the board knows the rest of my sob story... ha ha. I would be interested in hearing a little more expansion on your thought of the boat being over capitalized... I almost understood, but just barely missed the point.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm deep in the negotiations on both of these at the very moment and am close to having a survey done on the one that makes the most financial sense. In the interest of taking first time purchasers through the process, (in the States anyway), I will document the progress. Documentation, insurance, lender procedures, etc... etc...

Alan Wheeler once whispered in the wind:
Well yes and no. I don't think you should run scared from espeacially the pox boat. Blisters are not as bad as some, including the workyards, tend to make you believe. Many seem to think a hull with blisters has caught something as contagouse as the Black Plague.
However Sean, I would like to add, the Ticket price, should NOT/NEVER, be viewed as THE price. I would haggle and offer something way lower. Remember, there are many boats to buy. It's easy to buy a boat and much much harder to sell. Everyone is in that, errr "boat" so to speak. Vessels with things wrong like you have described, are only ever going to be bought by those looking for projects, with one view only. If it can be bought cheap, I can make a profit. The really bad boat I would consider making an offer $20K lower again. The blister boat, maybe $10K lower. Play hard, don't except the "2 wives 13 kids to support" story you will get dished out to you. Even walk away from the deal and maybe come back to the owner in a week or two and see what they think then. To look at this another way, if the boats were insured, then the insurance companies would be writing the hulls off, or getting them repaired. If not insured (most likely) and If the owners could see the market value in the hull after the repairs, then they would be doing the repairs and geting the market value. But I bet the money they are going to part out with, will make the boat over capitilized. I hope you understand my point there.
And finally, if you have time and enjoy the work, then this is a very fun way to get into a boat. I love the work I am doing on mine. It is like therapy to me

[Richhh]

For a GOOD treatise on blisters go to: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/blisters.htm also go the 'home' section of the Pescoe site and find other interesting articles about buying a used boat and .... 'blisters' before you make ANY decision in boat buying.

I'd be much less keen on a boat that had rot and water damage to the inside than blisters. As one poster already stated.... a bad blister repair is far worse, etc. as it often results in a hull that cannot be repaired/salvaged. My preference has been never to even consider a boat that someone has done an amateurish blister repair job as most of these 'repairs' ultimately fail ... unless the DIYer 'really' knew what he was doing and had an 'open checkbook'.

Unless blisters are large and penetrate into the structural roving layers this should represent a 'good' hull. There is so MUCH hype about blisters with the result that one to spend zillions of $$$ and hours fixing something that simply isnt broke. Same goes for 'wet' hulls .... nothing is as dangerous as a surveyor with a moisture meter in his/her hand, expecially when most dont know what they are reading, nor HOW to even calibrate a moisture meter .... hint: moisture meters only read SURFACE moisture.

Notwithstanding the above, I contracted a peeling crew to totally remove the gel and matting layer of my present boat bottom. I contracted a 'crew' to do the job in the winter when they were 'slack' ... for BIG savings, then I added new fiberglass and Kevlar CLOTH and barrier coated (double the 'recommended thickness) in a continuous process. I didnt have blisters but had the beginnings of severe hydrolysis that was identified from 'core samples' that I sent to a materials lab.

My present boat also has some small 'zit' blisters above the waterline in the gelcoat. My (micro) analysis is that the builder used a masking tape to cut-in the bootstrip ... and there is a mild chemical reaction going on with the polyester ..... and those blister are going to stay right where they are and be there forever.

hope this helps

[Strygaldwir]

We just brough our boat up from Hollywood Florida to New Bern North Carolina. We did about 2/3 of the mileage by going outside the intercoastal waterway and about 1/3 outside. On the issue of anchorages, you can go pretty much all the way up to at least Norfork Virginia without having to pay any marina fees. There are scores of anchorages all throughout the intercoastal. We had Sailor Bob's guides to Intercoastal Waterway anchorages and his guide to marinas. It was an older version that was given to us while we were in Florida. It was great!!! It at least let us know where the anchorages and marinas were and provided a few helpful hints on either anchoring or discounts on the various marinas. Many of the anchorages that are listed in the boat are less than 300 feet from a mairna. Made me think why you would pay up to 1.50 per foot per night! In anycase, we anchored about half the time and used marinas the other half. It took us about 17 days, but we took our time and did a lot of sightseing.

On the issues of the boats, I think you may be surprised at how much and how long it takes to refurbish a sunken/waterdamaged boat. We are currently involved in do this. Things like wire/cable, terminals, terminal junctions, switches, tie-wraps, heatshrink, solder, masking tape, sandpaper, epoxy, silcone sealants, solvents, and bandages add up to some SERIOUS miscellaneous cost. If you have already done that kind of restoration, the price differential and the solid man-year of work may make it economically feasible. My feeling is, in the long term, the blisters are going to be an easier, less expensive job. This months issue of "THIS OLD Boat" has a great article on repairing blisters, it leads me to think you could probably fix the hulls within a two week period.

Being on the hard is not fun, and can be expensive, but it is over quickly. Doing all this work in a marina is going to be expensive also. You'll probably find you have to be in the marina because you need access to power for tools, water for wash and the car for stuff you forgot, didn't know you needed the last time you went to the marine store.

Probably the best is to find someway to move it to your back yard!


Good luck.

Keith

[irwinsailor]

Be careful Sean. A boat is a VERY emotional purchase. I found it to be that way for me on our boat. My Wife was not a excited and she was much cooler in the dealing than I was. My offer was $101,000. less than the asking price subject to survey And it was accepted. The surveyor valued the boat $400. less than the agreed price and he gave me the best advice that I could have gotten. He told me that the survey was mine and that I did not need to tell anyone that I did not want to including the broker. My Wife rased hell with me for days until I just said do what you want to and I will buy the boat anyway after you are done even if it will be for more money. Now She knows how to play hard ball. She took that $400. and turned it into another $29000. off. Our boat is about done now and many things are new. It cost me about $40000. for the repairs and thousands of hours. It was worth it to me. JUST DON'T PAY TO MUCH!!!! What ever you think you should give them make it lower. There are Very few buyers out there that want project boats.

[ssullivan]

Hi Everyone,

We are down to 1 boat now... there was only one that we could afford in this model, which we have chosen due to the layout and size vs. price. Remember, I have a 100 Ton Master's and we plan to do some OUPV chartering, so we need something with a queen centerline at a closing price of about $80K.... so.... we were pushed into the early 90's Hunter 42 Passage. It's the only boat with the available real estate that will allow us to book enough charters to pay it off. This was a logical decision, not an emotional one.

Ok... so we are down to only one of these models that we can get for $80K. Here are the issues after survey:

1) The boat was flooded to the floorboards imersing the watermaker, AC, all wiring, and corroding the seacocks. I am writing all equipment that was submerged off as either dead, or about to die. My question is regarding the dark, black water in the bilge. The water is surprisingly clear, with just a few drops of oil on the surface. However, there are millions of little, tiny black "flakes" that look something like ashes floating at different levels in the water... this is what makes it look black. What could these flakes be?

2) The surveyor didn't mind the 10 ft long crack by the hull/deck joint caused by the previous owner. Would this crack bother anyone on here?

3) The wing keel took a good hit on the port side from below, deflecting one of the wings upward about 2 inches. The same hit appears to have knocked the keel such that the hull/keel joint has a small drip leak. We could tell since water from the inside of the boat left a streak down the keel on the outside of the boat. This means the keel needs to be sledge-hammered back into shape and also need to be dropped and re-sealed with some 5200. Would this make anyone on this page run? I thought it would be no big deal since my last boat had the same procedure done to it before I bought it... and no problems.

4) The water inside the boat reached the transmission and the bottom of the drip-pan on the Yanmar. Any concerns other than the oil test I'll have performed before the sea trial?

5) The boat was painted... which tells me something bad happened to it once... maybe. The surveyor couldn't tell me why the boat was painted... had no idea. Is this an issue?

6) EVERYTHING on this boat leaks... most hatches/ports, the mast step, etc... I have to re-bed most of the hatches and re-caulk the wiring going through the mast step area. These leaks have ruined most of the teak/holley sole, discoloring them. A few places have rot enough to have to replace. Do you think this is just a matter of re-bedding the hatches/ports, or is it more a case of this cheap boat flexing so much that the hatches and ports will leak forever? It is one of those boats with a liner and fewer bulkheads.

Finally, based on all that above, plus the following, would you purchase at $80K minus the cost of replacing AC, watermaker, etc?

*Keel will be bent back to shape, keel lowered, and sealed
*Running rigging will be replaced (all lines are rotted)
*Yanmar and Onan will be re-commissioned for sea trial, including fuel change

Thanks for any input... we are quite nervous about this basket case of a boat. As long as the numbers work out, I don't mind doing the labor, since I have all summer free to do it. It's more a matter of not spending more $$ on the boat.

Sean

[GordMay]

At a purchase price of <$80k, I suppose you could afford to invest about $40 - $50k in a refit. This sounds like a lot of money, but it’s not.
FWIW:
I view a 10' crack at the hull-deck joint as a serious flaw. This is not a cheap/easy repair.
It’s difficult to re-shape a bent keel, particularly a “wing”. You may never get it quite “right”.
The boat was painted, and you suspect previous damage. I am deathly afraid of “mystery flaws”. It’s impossible to evaluate the significance of these mysteries.
Everything leaks for a reason(s). You’ve already identified the commonest reason (flexure).
From your description, I think it will take more than a summer to re-fit this boat (more like a year).
I think I’d trust your instincts* on this one.
* “...we are quite nervous about this basket case of a boat....”
Gord

PS: Upon further reflection, this sounds more like a $20 - $30,000 project boat.

[irwinsailor]

From what I just read in your post RUN!!!! There is no way you will get this boat ready for $80k. If I were thinking of buying this boat I would offer $20k tops. Gord is right as always. And how much will the boat cost you in interest and starage bills while you are working on it? Figure on at least double what you are thinking.

[irwinsailor]

Many Onan gensets that are about 10 years old or older are not supported with parts from Onan. Call them to find out what they have. Otherwise figure on buying new. If the transmission was in the water for any lenght of time there is likely damage to the bearing surfaces, if so figure on buying new. Teak and holly ply cost $200 a sheet or more. Payments while you work fulltime on the boat with no income can get expensive. This deal will only work if you get the boat very very cheap. I paid 12 cents on the dollar for mine and I do not think it had as much wrong with it as yours.

[Alan Wheeler]

Wow! Sean. Well I certainly don't want to poor cold water on this. So lets start off with, A Hunter is a damn fine boat.
Now lets look at the situation in finer detail. Firstly, it sounds like this should have been an insurance write off, but the guy didn't have it insured. You need to play hard ball here. Nobody is going to buy this boat, unless they are trying to do exactly what you hope to. And there will be few wanting to. So you need to offer a rediculouse price. So a reasonable condition Hunter 42 is worth what? on the market. Take off 50% of that for a start. Then deduct all the things that need replacing.
Let me state at this stage, boats sell slowly. No one is going to rush in a steal this one from under you. So take your time and do your home work. Let the owner know you are interested, but need the time to do the sums. Then come back to him with a proposal. It maybe the asking price less the cost of repair for example. It maybe a deal of, 50% now and the other 50% in a few years when up and working. What ever, the ball is firmly in your court. Play it well.

OK, on to your questions. Flakes? they maybe paint. You probably want to get them analysed. I doubt they are anything of consern in regards to Hull itself.
Wiriing, this may be OK, but I can bet all the harware needs replacing, such as switch gear motors blah blah.
Seacocks could be OK and need a clean up, but????
Transmission and engine, if water hasn't gone into them, they will be OK. You may want to cheack all electrical on both.
Hull, well, I dunno. This sounds seriouse, but?? The Keel needs to be removed and check and repair and new keel bolts installed. Don't trust the bolts.
Paint, well that could have just been cosmetic, but once again???
To sum up, you are looking at close to a refit. Ask around some yards as to what a likely cost will be. Use that as a bench mark to reduce the price. Look at it this way. When building a boat from scratch, the hull and deck cost about 10 to 15% of the overall cost. So lets say some of the inside fitout has made this one 20%. The rest of that boat will cost you 80% to refit. So the purchase price wants to be ruffly 20% of the finished price if you understand what I mean.
Good luck.

[ssullivan]

I came back to the broker at $80K minus all repair costs, which puts the boat at $40K just to see what happens. However, I do feel that the flexing hull (which makes the ports leak) is the final straw. I still may not even consider this boat at $40K due to that issue. It will never stop leaking if it continues flexing... it's a design flaw in the boat itself.

Anyway, on to more boats:

Any quick opinions on the following?

-Gulfstar Hirsch 45
-Irwin MKII, MKIII

And are there any other nice looking boats with a decent aft cabin out there I am missing for about $80K?

Thanks everyone... you have been so helpful.

PS: Irwinsailor - one of the Gulfstars I'm looking at is in WI, and I'd have to do the same Erie canal passage you were looking at doing in another post. Maybe we can compare notes.

Sean

[Floridaguy]

Sean:

To answer the question you asked me about buying the boats if the were "X"$ under "list."


It depends. A boat that is $100,000 "under list" is no deal if it costs $150,000 to repair it.

I would calculate the costs to repair what you know is bad about the boat, include a fair labor cost for yourself, and then add at least 50% of the total for the things that you are going to find that need repaired that you didn't know about originally.

I'd calculate the investment in the boat, the guesstimate of repair costs, including your labor, and then see how that compares with a similar boat in seaworthy condition.

If you end up with $100,000 in a ooat that you repaired and you could have bought a similar boat for $80,000 "ready to sail," then this is not a good deal.

[Alan Wheeler]

Hmmm, back to the Hunter. I think you are making the right choice. The flex in the hull is or at least should not be a design flaw. I would suspect it is evedance of a greater calamity that befell it. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a bigger story to what happened, that the owner either is not telling you, or doesn't realise himself. But I suspect a structural problem that has not become obviouse yet. But it will!
Seriously, how far do you want to look. Just for instance, not suggesting, but it's just an example. A 38ft Ferro hull is for sale here in NZ right now. Opening bid is NZ$1.00 No I didn't get the decimal in the wrong place. I doubt it will go for any more than that. Now Seriuose, I don't think this is the boat for you, but I know of a 40ft vessel that has just returned from sailing the world. It has all the gear needed, beyond your dreams. They are asking NZ$160,000. Thats ruffly US$100K. Now that is still a bit above your budget, but see what I mean. There must be something that falls between those two figures I have shown, here or else where in the world. Oz is another country. You will often pick up boats going for a song, after a couple have had a fearsome trip somewhere and they have decided sailing is not for them. That is a story behind my boat. The original owner had a nightmare delivery trip and wife left boat at first sign of land. She probably didn't even wait for the boat to be tied up at the dock. The boat was sold cheap to the next owner.

[Alan Wheeler]

Infact Sean, go to this site right now. http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...0001-0348-.htm
Then click on Yachts & Sail.
I haven'
t searched it all, but in the first few listings, two boats of real interest showed up. One is a hull(Ganely 39ft Tara) well under way towards completion and has close to everything to finish the project. NZ$18K or ruffly US$12K
An Ed Sayers Ferro 40ft, beautiful vessel for NZ$85K or ruffly US$60K
Take a look and if I can help in anyway, you just yell.