Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by avb3

Actually Raku, Dockhead *is* a lawyer. He has stated that in this thread a number of times.

You may want to correct your statement and issue an apology to him.

No apology needed, LOL. I don't advertise this fact about myself and was not making a legal argument here. Lawyers are not the most popular folks in the US (and generally for good reasons, but that's another conversation.

What do you call 400 lawyers who have gone down with the ship? A: A good start!

[monte]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

If you haven't run aground, either you haven't ever left the slip, or you're a liar.
.

Actually I've never run aground, or been towed, or had a collision or left the dock with the shore power plugged in. So I guess that makes me a liar. I've only been sailing 40 years so I guess I must be really lucky!

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

What do you call 400 lawyers who have gone down with the ship? A: A good start!

Oh goody. Lawyer jokes. We could make a whole new thread that would dwarf the original joke thread.

There were three lawyers walking across the Golden Gate Bridge. One specialized in corporate law, one tax law, the third in criminal law. They decided to jump off the bridge together. Which one hit the water first?



Who cares.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

No apology needed, LOL. I don't advertise this fact about myself and was not making a legal argument here. Lawyers are not the most popular folks in the US (and generally for good reasons, but that's another conversation.

What do you call 400 lawyers who have gone down with the ship? A: A good start!

Or the one often told here:

What's the difference between a dead lawyer in the middle of the road and a dead snake in the middle of the road?

Skid marks in front of the snake ...


Any time I have used a laywer I have found him or her to be fair, honest, ethical, effective, friendly and likeable. I have no complaints with lawyers.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by monte

Actually I've never run aground, or been towed, or had a collision or left the dock with the shore power plugged in. So I guess that makes me a liar. I've only been sailing 40 years so I guess I must be really lucky!

Really, the "running aground" saying is true where I sail but is not unversally true around the planet. I had a guy on my boat once who has done a lot of sailing and racing in the English Channel. When the boat "skipped bottom" -- kissed the bottom but didn't run aground -- he said "What's that?"

He had no idea what it felt like. That was about 30 seconds before the rudder got bent ... and we were in the channel.

I know lots of sailors who have either not been towed -- or will not admit it. I have seen sailors go to real extremes to avoid being towed. But they all grew up learning how to sail, starting very young. By the time they were actually in charge of a boat they had had extensive experience on sailboats.

Me, I walked into the sailing club and said "sign me up for lessons."

Some lessons have been more expensive than others!

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Oh goody. Lawyer jokes. We could make a whole new thread that would dwarf the original joke thread.

There were three lawyers walking across the Golden Gate Bridge. One specialized in corporate law, one tax law, the third in criminal law. They decided to jump off the bridge together. Which one hit the water first?



Who cares.

OK. Ya made me laugh out loud!

[monte]

this is a bit long but I'll keep it on topic anyway...
A big city Maritime lawyer went duck hunting. He shot and dropped a bird, but it fell into a farmer's field on the other side of a fence.
As the lawyer climbed over the fence, an elderly farmer drove up on his tractor and asked the lawyer what he was doing.
The lawyer responded, "I shot a duck and it fell into this field, and now I'm going to retrieve it."
The old farmer replied. "This is my property, and your not coming over here."
The indignant lawyer replied. "I'm one of the best COLREG trial lawyers around, and if you don't let me get that duck, I'll sue you and take everything that you own.
The old farmer smiled and said, "Apparently, you don't know how we do things in these parts. We settle small disagreements like this, with the Three Kick Rule."
The lawyer asked, "What is the Three Kick Rule?"
The farmer replied, "Well, first I kick you three times and then you kick me three times, and so on, back and forth until someone gives up."
The lawyer quickly thought about the proposed contest and decided that he could easily take the old codger. He agreed to abide by the local custom.
The old farmer slowly gets down from the tractor and walked up to the city fella. His first kick planted the toe of his heavy work boot into the lawyer's groin, which dropped him to his knees.
His second kick nearly ripped the nose off his face.
The lawyer was flat on his belly, when the farmer's third kick to a kidney nearly causing him to give up, but didn't.
The lawyer summoned every bit of his will and managed to get to his feet and said, "Okay, now it's my turn."
The old farmer smiled and said,
"Naw, I give up, You can keep the duck!"

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The fact is that the COLREGS clearly require the steering rules to be enforced in a TSS. Hence a faster ship overtaking a yacht in a TSS must change course and or speed . Nowhere is this defined as impeding
.

He suggested you could have been "impeding" and still be "stand-on" without a contradiction. Impeding happens first, then the colregs kick in.

I have thinking about crossing situations, but let me present three overtaking scenarios (all with a 1000m wide TSS and only the two vessels).

1. Yacht sailing along the inside edge if a TSS, steady course straight downwind. Ship overtaking could pass with 1/4 mile CPA in the center of the channel but chooses to change course a little to go slightly over to the other side of the channel to increase the CPA. I believe you, and I and the ship colreg instructor (because the ship's maneuver is optional) would all agree that is not impeding.

2. Same as above but the yacht is sailing down the center of the TSS lane and the overtaking ship must maneuver to go to the very outside edge of the Lane to safely pass. The colreg instructor would say that is impeding; I believe you would say it is not.

3. Yacht is sailing up a TSS lane, tacking directly wind, tacking on small wind shifts ( so tacking essentially at random unpredictable times). Overtaking ship can not predict where the yacht will be and must slow from 17kts to 10kts and must make a significant sharp turn when close to avoid/pass the yacht. Again the colreg instructor would say this is impeding . . . I am not sure what you would say? Thus scenario presents the greatest difference between the "sea room" approach and the "dictionary definition of impede" approach.


Note: we are talking about international colregs, not us inland rules. When I talked with the instructor I framed the question as in the English Channel. He happened to be a active/current transoceanic ship captain.

[El Pinguino]

In case 3 I would say the yacht skipper is a nong and operating in complete contravention of Rule 10 (c) A vessel shall, so far as practicable, avoid crossing traffic lanes but if obliged to do so shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow.
Yes he is not just 'impeding' he is also 'impeding the safe passage' of the ship. Pull the speed off in a busy TSS and all sorts of excitement will break out astern off you... been there seen that... in fog..off Ushant...early seventies.

[BigBoater917]

Deep draft sailboats are often an issue. I watched someone cut the bow of a container ship in his sailboat (under power) because he wanted to be on the other side of the channel. Never mind the fair tide and limited space the ship had. At least he had a radio and used it after the pilot called him.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

He suggested you could have been "impeding" and still be "stand-on" without a contradiction. Impeding happens first, then the colregs kick in.

I have thinking about crossing situations, but let me present three overtaking scenarios (all with a 1000m wide TSS and only the two vessels).

1. Yacht sailing along the inside edge if a TSS, steady course straight downwind. Ship overtaking could pass with 1/4 mile CPA in the center of the channel but chooses to change course a little to go slightly over to the other side of the channel to increase the CPA. I believe you, and I and the ship colreg instructor (because the ship's maneuver is optional) would all agree that is not impeding.

2. Same as above but the yacht is sailing down the center of the TSS lane and the overtaking ship must maneuver to go to the very outside edge of the Lane to safely pass. The colreg instructor would say that is impeding; I believe you would say it is not.

3. Yacht is sailing up a TSS lane, tacking directly wind, tacking on small wind shifts ( so tacking essentially at random unpredictable times). Overtaking ship can not predict where the yacht will be and must slow from 17kts to 10kts and must make a significant sharp turn when close to avoid/pass the yacht. Again the colreg instructor would say this is impeding . . . I am not sure what you would say? Thus scenario presents the greatest difference between the "sea room" approach and the "dictionary definition of impede" approach.


Note: we are talking about international colregs, not us inland rules. When I talked with the instructor I framed the question as in the English Channel. He happened to be a active/current transoceanic ship captain.

From the rules:

10(b) A vessel using a traffic separation scheme shall:
(i) Proceed in the appropriate traffic lane in the general direction of traffic flow for that lane.
(ii) So far as is practicable keep clear of a traffic separation line or separation zone.

Your second scenario is one where the yacht "pinches" the ship, as I indicated before should be considered impeding as it makes the ship contravene subpara (ii).

In your third scenario, a tacking sailboat tends to contravene subpara (i). While I believe a sailboat can use a traffic lane, I feel that if unable to make a course that is in the direction of the lane, it should either exit the lane or motor-sail (at least when a ship is overtaking).

[JPA Cate]

"Should motor-sail???" Do you mean simply motor straight across at the recommended 90 deg? Is this law?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

"Should motor-sail???" Do you mean simply motor straight across at the recommended 90 deg? Is this law?

The context was if the sailboat was following the lane, being overtaken by a ship.

There's no law requiring a sailboat to motor-sail when crossing a lane, and the clause "near as practicable at right angles" suggests that a sailboat doesn't need to be 90º if the wind doesn't permit it.

[El Pinguino]

However motorsailing would most likely get you across the lane a lot faster.... which would be nice. Also means you are the 'give way' vessel in one of the lanes which is also nice.

I've just had a look at the TSS in the southern North Sea/Dover Straits.... 4 to 5 miles seems a typical width.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

"Should motor-sail???" Do you mean simply motor straight across at the recommended 90 deg? Is this law?

I think he meant that you shouldn't use the lane if you can't sail on the correct course in it. So, for example, if following the lane would put you dead upwind, you must not tack up the TSS. You should either leave the TSS or put on the motor so you can follow the lane.

Seems entirely reasonable.