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Old 29-10-2013, 02:15   #391
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Maybe you're supposed to take leeway (is that what you mean by "windage"?) into account, but you are definitely not supposed to take the current into account. A compass heading 90 degrees to the direction of the TSS lane will get you across faster than 90 degrees COG.

If a court thought otherwise, the judges were wrong. This is in the instructions for the Channel TSS's somewhere.
agreed, I was quoting the text from memory. The leeway is what was said. I'm just feeling lazy enough this morning to not go get my Colregs.
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Old 29-10-2013, 06:18   #392
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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... or not crossing a TSS in a as near 90 degree angle as possible. Indeed, in the one case, the sailboat owner admitted that he had not taken windage and current into account (as he should have) when crossing, which resulted in a much less than 90 degree course.
Rule 10 specifically states "shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow" vice 'course' or 'track.'
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Old 29-10-2013, 06:55   #393
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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Rule 10 specifically states "shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow" vice 'course' or 'track.'
Well I did say I was quoting from memory, Here is the case as cited by the Danish Maritime Authority in their commentary to the Colregs.

Seacourt, Horsens (DK) March 8, 2006

The court found that the pleasure boat "A" had sailed against the mandated direction of traffic in the TSS at Terschelling German Bight, Germany for approximately 30 minutes, while crossing the TSS. Navigation during the crossing was assisted by use of a GPS, but actual positions were not marked on the sea chart. The helmsman did not, therefore, have an accurate overview of exactly how the vessel crossed the TSS. The helmsman was fined Dkr. 3000 and sentenced to 6 days incarceration. Incarceration was suspended by the court.

Sorry for my poor memory (I plead old age) Mea Culpa
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Old 29-10-2013, 13:12   #394
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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Well I did say I was quoting from memory, Here is the case as cited by the Danish Maritime Authority in their commentary to the Colregs.

Seacourt, Horsens (DK) March 8, 2006

The court found that the pleasure boat "A" had sailed against the mandated direction of traffic in the TSS at Terschelling German Bight, Germany for approximately 30 minutes, while crossing the TSS. Navigation during the crossing was assisted by use of a GPS, but actual positions were not marked on the sea chart. The helmsman did not, therefore, have an accurate overview of exactly how the vessel crossed the TSS. The helmsman was fined Dkr. 3000 and sentenced to 6 days incarceration. Incarceration was suspended by the court.

Sorry for my poor memory (I plead old age) Mea Culpa
Just for my education as I'm still quite new to sailing.

A fictional TSS runs East-West ( traffic on the South side moving East, traffic on the North moving West).

I'm in my sailboat under sail (hull speed 7kn max) traveling East on the far South side of the TSS and I need to get to the far North side of the TSS.

The wind is steady @15 kn from the NNE and my vessel can point max 90° (45° to either side of the AP wind).

No collisions are imminent and I decide to go.

I have three choices that I can think of:

One is on a starboard tack all the way which would be the shortest line and quickest but would put me reverse to traffic on the South side.

Two is on a port tack all the way which would take longer and a longer line and I would cut a long line against the traffic on the North side, or finally,

Three, a port tack on the South side with traffic and coming about at the centre of the TSS to a starboard tack to finish. No opposing the traffic but not the shortest or closest to a 90° crossing.

Which course would I sail?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 29-10-2013, 13:51   #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank_f

Just for my education as I'm still quite new to sailing.

A fictional TSS runs East-West ( traffic on the South side moving East, traffic on the North moving West).

I'm in my sailboat under sail (hull speed 7kn max) traveling East on the far South side of the TSS and I need to get to the far North side of the TSS.

The wind is steady @15 kn from the NNE and my vessel can point max 90° (45° to either side of the AP wind).

No collisions are imminent and I decide to go.

I have three choices that I can think of:

One is on a starboard tack all the way which would be the shortest line and quickest but would put me reverse to traffic on the South side.

Two is on a port tack all the way which would take longer and a longer line and I would cut a long line against the traffic on the North side, or finally,

Three, a port tack on the South side with traffic and coming about at the centre of the TSS to a starboard tack to finish. No opposing the traffic but not the shortest or closest to a 90° crossing.

Which course would I sail?

Thanks in advance.
Four: motor on heading 000.
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Old 29-10-2013, 14:06   #396
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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Four: motor on heading 000.


But if you had to sail, which one?
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Old 29-10-2013, 14:35   #397
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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When I'm supposed to stay where I am but scamper off (pick a direction) because I don't want to get in anybody's way (bigger than me at least), what situations am I causing?
Frank, almost the entire reason for this thread was from an earlier thread where a skipper said she'd just duck out of the way and the point in response to that was that BIG ships may be so WIDE that the sailboat skipper may not realize that her "ducking and diving" ("scamper off") could make matters worse for the big ship's skipper who may have already altered course to clear but she didn't know that. You may want to go back to the OP to figure out where this "entire thread" came from.

Great discussion folks.
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Old 29-10-2013, 16:30   #398
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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But if you had to sail, which one?
without a lot of thinking power on my end...whatever heading you can cross the TSS in the minimum amount of time...that's the objective of the rules....even if it costs YOU time....
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Old 29-10-2013, 16:51   #399
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Plan your transit, particularly in these zones. If you wanted to be on the north side why didn't you sail to the north at the approach to the TSS. Certainly there are exceptions but if you can't motor nor can you sail at approx 90 deg to the lane; well that's your call whether you want to violate the rules. AND as was shown be prepared to pay the piper in the off chance you get caught.
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Old 29-10-2013, 17:38   #400
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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Plan your transit, particularly in these zones. If you wanted to be on the north side why didn't you sail to the north at the approach to the TSS. Certainly there are exceptions but if you can't motor nor can you sail at approx 90 deg to the lane; well that's your call whether you want to violate the rules. AND as was shown be prepared to pay the piper in the off chance you get caught.
Wait a minute here. Are you telling me that if I'm sailing, and am able to cross the TSS at (say) 45 degrees without impeding any ships, that I'm violating the rules? I don't buy it.
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Old 29-10-2013, 18:29   #401
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You can interpret the rules as you like. That's the way this thread is running!
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Old 29-10-2013, 18:55   #402
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

frank_f,

It's hard to answer your hypothetical because in a TSS it's likely there will be traffic...lots of traffic. Traffic affects what you can safely do. In your hypothetical assuming I had no engine for whatever reason I would get on the VHF and talk it out with the traffic controllers well before I came to the point of the crossing. You should be able to explain your problem to them and ask for their advice. They may tell you to wait, or ask you to arrange a tow or they may have some other solution. But in my experience they are more than glad to help you. They also have a clear picture of the traffic for miles around.

P.S. If I were in your hypothetical situation I would not jump on an internet forum using a smart phone and ask what to do. You might get 9 different answers from 6 different people.
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Old 29-10-2013, 19:27   #403
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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You can interpret the rules as you like. That's the way this thread is running!
not even close...fishing is allowed in TSSs as well as just about any other activity as long as you don't impede...lotsa talk here that I just don't get. When you start with the concept of what TSSs are for, then apply the COLREGS...ain't too difficult for those that are out there all the time...clear as a bell???? No way!!!!!...but most situations in real life tend to wind their way into working 9(because most professional mariners figure out what to do without making a big fuss about it) unless there's gross negligence, absolute stupidity or someone who is clueless....

To get all of those aligned isn't as common as you think.

Every day I hear commercial traffic calling rec boats absentmindedly using both the TSS and narrow channel in Delaware Bay between New Jersey and Delaware. 90-95 percent of the time the commercial traffic gets a hold of the rec vessel on VHF and works it out..the other times I have no idea what happens...but there hasn't been a ccollision or "tough situation" that I know of for decades....

Bottom line is...it's all in the "call"...if a merchie wants to insist on some vessel "impeding" him...chances are that will probably go that way unless there's a lot of collected evidence that would prove otherwise...and that usually doesn't happen. As the USCG operations officer for the Delbay area..we would occasionally get a call how some fishing vessel wasn't vacating the TSS when a super tanker or large tug/tow was using the TSS...we would send out a helo or boat to document and chase the fishing vessel out...no questions asked...no violations ever issued on my watch...it always seemed to be a non-issue for the most part.
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Old 29-10-2013, 20:26   #404
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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But if you had to sail, which one?
Option 1 or 3. Randy should read the rules rather than assume we're just making it up as we go along. The rule states: 'A vessel shall, so far as practicable, avoid crossing traffic lanes but, if obliged to do so, shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow.' For option 3, you should ideally exit the eastbound lane at a shallow angle then tack to cross the separation zone and westbound lane at as close to a right angle as you can manage.
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Old 29-10-2013, 21:05   #405
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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...but there hasn't been a ccollision or "tough situation" that I know of for decades.....

Mmmmm . . . . There is another thread about a collision (between a yacht and a ship) at cowes race week, where the skipper has just been found guilty of impeding.

It's an interesting situation, because at about 2 minutes before the collision the yacht shipper had put himself in a very tough situation where if he turned stb he would be in the current path of the ship while if he turned port he would be in the "expected future" path of the ship (the ship normally made, planned to make, and made sound signals for a stb turn). The skipper choose to make the stb turn hoping/expecting the ship would also make it's expected stb turn, but the ship did not because it was blocked by a disabled power boat in the path of its turn, so it kept going streight.

For me the lesson is that the yacht skipper made a decision (to choose a path that would pass close to the stern of the ship along it's expected track) at about 4mins (about 1.3 nm from the CPA) before the collision that did not leave enough room for unexpected developments. He was racing, and made a risk vs extra distance decision, which would have been perfect if things had developed as expected but turned out poorly because of the unexpected disabled power boat.

Anyway . . . . These situations do happen . . . . In about 20 years I have been personally involved in two "tough" situations . . . One of my own making in the approaches yo the Ches bay, and another of the ship's making off Brazil. Neither resulted in collision . . . But both required some sharp action by the stand on (Brazil) or not to be impeded (Ches bay) vessel. Somewhere just under 2nm (certainly more than 1nm) seems to be where this sort of "final avoidance action" is necessary. If you leave it later than that then you are putting things into the hand of Lady Luck.
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