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Old 30-09-2013, 15:50   #151
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

I've always adhered to the, 'one most likely to die in a collision gives way', rule. Kept me alive during 28 years of motorcycle riding.
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Old 30-09-2013, 16:05   #152
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

Some thoughts... the waters of Puget Sound are not international waters and the local authorities can make whetever rules they wish
'1. Application
(a) These rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.
(b) Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours, rivers, lakes, or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules.'

And regarding 'impeding'... that is in rule 9 .. which involves channels not TSS.

9. Narrow channels
A vessel proceeding along a narrow channel must keep to starboard.
Small vessels or sailing vessels must not impede (larger) vessels which can navigate only within a narrow channel.
Ships must not cross a channel if to do so would impede another vessel which can navigate only within that channel.

Nothing in rule 10 saying small craft can't use a TSS... frinstance Singapore Straits TSS is used by ships from a few hundred tons to several hundred thousand tons... define 'small'. I can't think why a yacht would want to use one but if you did you would really want to be bolted onto the dotted line on your starboard hand.
10. Traffic Separation Schemes
Ships must cross traffic lanes steering a course "as nearly as practicable" at right angles to the direction of traffic. This reduces confusion and enables that vessel to cross the lane as quickly as possible.
Vessel entering a traffic separation scheme should do it at an angle as small as practicable.
A traffic separation scheme does not relieve any vessel from complying with other rules.'

TSS weren't introduced to separate big ships from yachts and stuff but to separate big ships from big ships. Anyone who can remember the southern North Sea and Dover Strait pre 1971 will know what I mean.

Inshore Traffic Zones just don't happen , they are designated , quite a few TSS have them, quite a few don't. Many TSS such as the one south of Cape Aghulas are a long way off shore.
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Old 30-09-2013, 22:57   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watermann

ITZ's exist as their own designated entities and will be shown on charts. I'm not aware of any on the U.S. west coast and certainly there aren't any in Puget Sound.

There will be no rule stating that vessels are allowed to not use the TSS. Rather, the absence of a rule that obligates them to do so, means that the requirement doesn't strictly exist. The Navigation Regulations are silent on it and I'm not aware of any case law regarding it either.

However, you're right in that the practical effect is that a) the lanes exist to ensure that large vessels are in predictable areas and are somewhat segregated from smaller vessels and b) the requirements of Rule 10(h) would be difficult to overcome/justify by a vessel, particularly a large ship, that rides outside and parallel to the lanes during a transit. There is no logical reason to do that and in the event of a collision, that would certainly be brought up. Local custom in these waters is that, other navigational considerations aside, large commercial traffic transiting the sound will be utilizing the TSS.
I don't know how it works in Puget Sound, but in the Dover Straits the ITZ is a specifically defined area, and vessels other than those under 20 meters LOA and sailing vessels are not allowed to use the ITZ unless safety demands it, or they are navigating to a port you can't get to otherwise. See http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-hom...cnis_works.htm. That is, unless you are 20 meters or less, or a sailing vessel, or you have some reason related to safety, etc., you are required to use the TSS to transit the area.
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Old 30-09-2013, 23:44   #154
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

Ya know I studied all of this stuff over 50 yrs ago! But Ive always thought It was MY job to keep My vessel safe and my crew safe! So I figure if theres any thing out there that that I can run in to, or can run in to me, Im gonna do some type of thing to make the situation safe ! from changeing course, useing the radio, or even settng the strobe off, Ive even used a flare once, to get the attention of a Korean cargo ship! But mostly I move out of harms way! If that means going into the shallows and anchoring I will !! Whatever it takes! just my 2 cents
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:25   #155
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

last saturday night a commercial ship (small tanker, maybe 200 ft) was coming up on my starboard side from astern. i was watching him for a long while, realizing that we would get close if we kept our courses. my boat speed was around 4 knots under sail only, he was making around 12. i switched on my deck lights, just to give him more light to notice me with my sails up. when he was 300 or 400 meters out, i altered course to avoid getting any nearer. then this #xxhole turned towards me! we jibed, got the hell away from him, but he still passed within spitting distance of our stern. he must have totally not seen us. there was no call on ch16, no horn, my AIS was working, I had my radar on, but he kept going towards me. lucky he did not hit us.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:45   #156
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post

And regarding 'impeding'... that is in rule 9 .. which involves channels not TSS.

9. Narrow channels
A vessel proceeding along a narrow channel must keep to starboard.
Small vessels or sailing vessels must not impede (larger) vessels which can
Ships must not cross a channel if to do so would impede another vessel which can navigate only within that channel.

Nothing in rule 10 saying small craft can't use a TSS... frinstance Singapore Straits TSS is used by ships from a few hundred tons to several hundred thousand tons... define 'small'. I can't think why a yacht would want to use one but if you did you would really want to be bolted onto the dotted line on your starboard hand.
I believe you might have skipped over Para J of Rule 10

A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a
power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.

With regards to the TSS at Dover, further guidance can be found here.
Guidance & Regulations

There is a small part in the guidance notes which goes some way to explaining "not impeded the safe passage". Although it specifically mentions vessels engaged in fishing, I dont see why it cannot apply to sailing boats

"The requirement that vessels fishing must not impede the passage of traffic passing through a TSS, means that they must not operate in such a manner that neither they, nor their gear, seriously restricts the sea room available to other vessels within a lane, and must take early and substantial action to avoid any risk of collision developing. "
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:56   #157
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
I believe you might have skipped over Para J of Rule 10

A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a
power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.

With regards to the TSS at Dover, further guidance can be found here.
Guidance & Regulations

There is a small part in the guidance notes which goes some way to explaining "not impeded the safe passage". Although it specifically mentions vessels engaged in fishing, I dont see why it cannot apply to sailing boats

"The requirement that vessels fishing must not impede the passage of traffic passing through a TSS, means that they must not operate in such a manner that neither they, nor their gear, seriously restricts the sea room available to other vessels within a lane, and must take early and substantial action to avoid any risk of collision developing. "
It does sound from this like you're even allowed to fish (!) in the TSS lanes, provided you don't impede.

It's quite hard for me to imagine how any slow-moving vessel like a yacht can be in the TSS lanes at all without impeding a dense stream of ships moving down the lanes at 14 to 20 knots.

Certainly we are impeding ships -- creating risks of collision which requires them to maneuver -- simply by crossing the Channel -- outside the TSS zones.


By the way, the Guidance Notes touch on a question which Lodesman and I debated some time ago -- the interaction of obligations to "not impede" with obligations of the other vessel to give way or keep clear under the steering and sailing rules.

Under Rule 10, vessels under 20 meters or sailing vessel are obligated to not impede motor vessels navigating along a traffic lane.

However, the Guidance Notes say "Vessels proceeding in a TSS do not have priority over crossing traffic.", and say nothing about whether the crossing traffic is obligated to not impede or not.

The Notes also say:
"Vessels in either traffic lane may frequently have to give way to ferries and other crossing vessels in order to comply with the Steering and Sailing Rules (Rules 4 – 19) of the COLREGs."

This note:

"Rule 8(f) places further obligations upon fishing vessels, with regard to their responsibility not to impede the passage of any vessel following a traffic lane, and fishing vessels are not relieved from this obligation in a developing situation where risk of collision may exist. When taking any action they must, however, take account of the possible manoeuvres of the vessel which is not to be impeded."

Sounds very much like what Lodesman was arguing -- that the motor vessel still has to give way if required to under the Steering and Sailing Rules, even if that vessel is the vessel "not to be impeded" under other rules. So that both vessels are obligated to maneuver at the same time -- one in order to "give way", and the other in order to "not impede".

This seemed totally illogical to me when I was arguing about it with Lodesman, but here you have it more or less in black and white. Hmmmm. I agree with Nigel that although the Notes are talking about fishing vessels, the same logic ought to apply to yachts.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:14   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ato View Post
last saturday night a commercial ship (small tanker, maybe 200 ft) was coming up on my starboard side from astern. i was watching him for a long while, realizing that we would get close if we kept our courses. my boat speed was around 4 knots under sail only, he was making around 12. i switched on my deck lights, just to give him more light to notice me with my sails up. when he was 300 or 400 meters out, i altered course to avoid getting any nearer. then this #xxhole turned towards me! we jibed, got the hell away from him, but he still passed within spitting distance of our stern. he must have totally not seen us. there was no call on ch16, no horn, my AIS was working, I had my radar on, but he kept going towards me. lucky he did not hit us.
Ato,

Sorry to hear about your close call. From your description it sounds like the tanker did see you and altered course. It takes a bit of time for a 200ft vessel to show results of the helm input. It seems possible that the tanker made a maneuver before you did and you turned into his new course. This is exactly what we've been talking about in this thread. Since you watched him for a long time and you saw him on AIS I wonder why you did not hail their bridge and discuss intentions?
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:00   #159
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I
However, the Guidance Notes say "Vessels proceeding in a TSS do not have priority over crossing traffic.", and say nothing about whether the crossing traffic is obligated to not impede or not.

The Notes also say:
"Vessels in either traffic lane may frequently have to give way to ferries and other crossing vessels in order to comply with the Steering and Sailing Rules (Rules 4 – 19) of the COLREGs."
It has always been the case that in crossing situations within a TSS, involving power driven vessels over 20 in length, then the normal steering and sailing rules apply. Crossing ferries will give way to traffic on their stbd bow, but stand on to vessels following a lane on their own port bow.

The awkward bit is for fishing vessels, sailing vessels and vessels less than 20m where the "not impede safe passage" comes into play, the term is pretty loose and open to interpretation. I would argue that a sail boat is entitled to stand on in a lane if there was one ship following the lane.
When it gets to a whole herd of ships, it gets complicated. By having a PD give way to a sail boat, it might put that PD vessel in a close quarters situation with another vessel, and that can be construed as impeding safe passage.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:28   #160
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
The awkward bit is for fishing vessels, sailing vessels and vessels less than 20m where the "not impede safe passage" comes into play, the term is pretty loose and open to interpretation. I would argue that a sail boat is entitled to stand on in a lane if there was one ship following the lane.

When it gets to a whole herd of ships, it gets complicated. By having a PD give way to a sail boat, it might put that PD vessel in a close quarters situation with another vessel, and that can be construed as impeding safe passage.
Interesting point of view, and I continue to believe that the Rules are poorly formed on this issue. This is exactly what Lodesman and I were discussing some time ago.

So you do not believe that standing on into a situation where the PD vessel is required to maneuver amounts to "impeding"?

What the hell is "impeding" anyway? I guess there are two separate problems: (1) what exactly is "impeding", and (2) how does the obligation to no impede interact with an obligation on the part of another vessel to give way under the Steering and Sailing Rules -- what is the order or priority of these obligations?

I would have thought that if a risk of collision exists and the other vessel has to maneuver, then you are impeding him, and that furthermore, a vessel not to be impeded ought not to have to give way (up until other S&S Rules come into play, of course), but this logic does not seem to be much supported by anything in here.

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Old 01-10-2013, 05:40   #161
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Its important to remember that " impeding " is very loosely defined and in fact based on court judgements seems to boil down to creating a situation where a vessels hasn't room to get out of your way. For a small sailboat I suspect it would very DIFFICULT impede a PD vessel in a typically wide TSS.

Some people Incorrectly , say that impeding is where you cause the other boat to change direction or speed. This is NOT the case. The fact in a TSS that a large ship has to adjust course or speed to overtake you is in itself not impeding.

I think the issue is clear. We are all entitled to use TSS.s

Dave
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:14   #162
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Its important to remember that " impeding " is very loosely defined and in fact based on court judgements seems to boil down to creating a situation where a vessels hasn't room to get out of your way. For a small sailboat I suspect it would very DIFFICULT impede a PD vessel in a typically wide TSS.

Some people Incorrectly , say that impeding is where you cause the other boat to change direction or speed. This is NOT the case. The fact in a TSS that a large ship has to adjust course or speed to overtake you is in itself not impeding.

I think the issue is clear. We are all entitled to use TSS.s

Dave
That seems logical enough, and might be a solution to the conundrum, but where do you get this principle and definition of "impeding"?
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:17   #163
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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What the hell is "impeding" anyway?
Getting in the #$@^^*g way! thats what impeding is!!!!

The curse of my life used to be 'deep draught yachts' on the main leads at 03dark...

Nigel... re 10J.... I've been retired for 7 years... I do remember that 5 short when they hadn't even seen you used to work a treat
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:19   #164
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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Getting in the #$@^^*g way! thats what impeding is!!!!

The curse of my life used to be 'deep draught yachts' on the main leads at 03dark...

Nigel... re 10J.... I've been retired for 7 years... I do remember that 5 short when they hadn't even seen you used to work a treat
Exactly contrary to Dave's definition.

So where is the truth???

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Old 01-10-2013, 06:30   #165
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
When it gets to a whole herd of ships, it gets complicated. By having a PD give way to a sail boat, it might put that PD vessel in a close quarters situation with another vessel, and that can be construed as impeding safe passage.
Another risk is that , having given way to another PDV , you find a yacht hidden behind it.... think Norwegian Dream(?) and the Everwhatsit.... OK the Everwhatsit wasn't a yacht but it still got smacked....

Bit liverish at the moment... just back from a 600k round trip to drop the cook off at the airport....
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