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Old 21-09-2015, 13:11   #76
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

If I was trying to avoid high slip fees and maximize living space and especially privacy in your price range I would look for a Nor'Sea 27. What's not to like? The center cockpit version offers a lot of everything you are looking for as the head is separated from the forward and aft sleeping areas, they are extremely well made, seaworthy and well within your price range.

A 27 foot boat is lots easier to handle than a 34 foot boat. And the Nor'Sea is very safe and dry with the center cockpit. The cockpit is a little cozy for four people but fine for two.

Most of the time it will just be you and someone you know very well on the boat anyway. After you live for awhile in a boat you realize you don't want to have regular guests in such a small area, even a 40 footer.

On that Cal 2-27, the head is separated from the salon by a solid door but only separated from the V berth by a folding door on the 1976 version. You could literally sit on the toilet and tickle the foot of someone in the V berth. My GF would not use the head in that arrangement, she would walk to the marina bathroom instead. Just saying. On the Cal 34, there is a door between the V berth and the head, and another solid door between the head and the salon. She still walks to the marina bathroom most of the time ha.

I learned to sail on a Sunfish when I was a kid. Whoopee. You can easily learn on a 27 footer or 30 footer if you are smart enough to be able to drive a car without killing yourself. A larger boat will be fairly intimidating especially near a dock for a newbie for quite a while, depending on how often you sail.

With a Nor'Sea, you would have money left over to buy a nice sailing dinghy. Or frequent hotel rooms for guests.
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Old 21-09-2015, 13:32   #77
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

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On that Cal 2-27, the head is separated from the salon by a solid door but only separated from the V berth by a folding door on the 1976 version. You could literally sit on the toilet and tickle the foot of someone in the V berth. My GF would not use the head in that arrangement, she would walk to the marina bathroom instead. Just saying. On the Cal 34, there is a door between the V berth and the head, and another solid door between the head and the salon. She still walks to the marina bathroom most of the time ha.

That's why boats with aft head locations make so much sense.

Here are some other pointers for when you're looking:

Three things to check (actually four)

Like any boat, check it out, but here are three things I suggest to everyone:

1. Dipstick access. If it's a pain to do, you won't, nor would the PO. Is it easy to get to or do you have to tear the cushions out?

2. What engine? Are spare parts reasonably available? Yanmar parts are hard to get (worse in Canada). And very expensive. Not a deal killer, but... Universal engines are Kubotas so tractor stores have the parts. Yanmar are reputed to be available world-wide, Kubota not so much, but they're both tractor engines on boats in the 30-38 foot range. PS – There is a Kubota tractor dealer just outside Duncan, BC on the Island, right on Hwy 1. Great folks (July 2015).

3. Sleeping - try out the berths. Really. Our boat has what I have found to be THE largest V berth of any boat in its size class, even the C36s. Try out the berths. Try out the berths...

4. A thorough, complete, searchable and supportive boat owners website. C34 and C36 are very, very good. Many of the systems are also applicable to the C30, which has had too many and various websites available over the years.

Courtesy Boatman61 on cruisersforum:

Make up a list of boats that are up for sale near you that are accessible to viewing externally.. tromp the pontoons and check out the exteriors.. salty enough.. or trendy enough.. the way the exterior is maintained tells a hell of a lot.. not so much the gleaming S/S.. more the general appearance.. sloppy lines, mildewed running rigging.. the way the sails are stowed.. can tell one a lot before you even look below.. don't like it.. Scratch it..
A coupla w/ends of this you'll have a short list..
Call the brokers or owners and set up 2 viewings a day for when it suits you and then go for it.. – limit the viewings and take cameras & lotsa photos.
Get on Board.. the more knowledgeable checks out the top while the other heads below.. now some boats.. I don't know why.. but as soon as you reach the bottom of the steps its: “No Way.”
Not because its a mess.. just a kinda antipathy.. don't strike any others of the same model off the list.. unless it happens again. Its weird..
Anyway.. when you've both finished nosing around.. ask the broker or owner for some time alone together one the boat.. no excited patter/chatter or this good.. that bad..
Thats for later.. this is bonding time.. sit back.. maybe lay on the bunks.. and open up.. you'll know what I mean when it happens.. that little smile with eyes closed on both your faces means.. You've found THE Boat..
And you'll go home and start scheming how to get it yesterday...
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Old 21-09-2015, 13:35   #78
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

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Originally Posted by sjenner View Post
Great advice on this thread and with all due respect to Paul, I will take his advice with a grain of salt. Sailing cruiser boats takes more than just knowing how to sail. One must know systems and how to maintain basics of the engine, bilge pumps, and so forth. I can settle for one head and two cabins and non-electric winches if they allow me to sail the boat single handed by myself.
While I do encourage to go for your dream as you see it, I would not dismiss Paul's points too much. Though I think Paul may be a little rigid in his opinion and his bedside manner may not be appealing, his point about getting sailing basics solidly under your belt early on is a good one. A Laser is an excellent choice. It is fast, fun (very important for learning) and because its response is immediate, you will develop reactions that will become subconscious and automatic in sail trim. Lasers aren't the only ones of course, but I think his point is a good one. (People with solid skills are far less likely to be like the folks thomm225 talked about!) Actually I think you should buy both! Big and little. Live on one and practice on the other. But still you are wise to wait before buying because your tastes and preferences will change as you gain more time on the water. And there is the time spent listening to others, like us, argue about the best boat, that can really help you.... get more confused. (By the way if you are considering the Pearson 27, I think you ought to check that Cape Dory 28 in your neighborhood... I am just vicariously enjoying the idea of being on a boat search.)
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Old 21-09-2015, 13:48   #79
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

"ORDER UP !!"
Two cabins, two heads, electric winches .... would you like fries with that, Sir?

Sorry, don't mean to be mean ... I couldn't resist.

I hope you find something you like ... that's a tall order.

And please, please be careful out there ... I've seen disasters from those lacking experience and it isn't pretty: they never sail again, a shame.

I remember one couple, after being rescued, sitting on the dock shaking and as white as ghosts ... simply terrified. Don't let that be you.

Good Luck
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Old 21-09-2015, 13:49   #80
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

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Originally Posted by sjenner View Post
Awesome I'll keep my options open and consider your super helpful tips. Much obliged and blue waters.
My apologies on behalf of the Community for the condescending remarks.

There's nothing wrong with your question.

My suggestion is to spend some time trawling yachtworld. You will quickly get a feel for how boats of different sizes are laid out and what's available. There is nothing wrong with not knowing this now, and you will quickly figure it out.

Then go have a look at a couple in the flesh.

Space goes up geometrically with length, so as others have suggested, a typical 35' boat is more than double the interior volume of a typical 25' one.

25' is pretty tiny -- you cannot stand up in the cabins of most of these.

35' ranges from being big enough for four or five guys to go sailing for a week in -- that would be the more modern designs which maximize interior volume -- to being snug for anything but a couple. You will have to look around.

You do not want electric winches on boats this size -- they are not needed for the forces involved and you will hardly find any boats in that size range offered with them anyway.

Two heads compartments is a nice luxury but eat up space, and I would avoid this on boats of under 40' or so. What you should really be looking for in that department is a separate shower instead of the more usual shower which basically just runs down onto the floor in the heads. You find that sometimes in this size range and it's nice.

From the sound of your mission, it seems to me that you'll want a 35-ish foot boat, which will be large enough to sail with a few people sometimes, which is fun. Older boats of this size will typically have a v-berth in the forepeak and a bunk in the main salon -- so basically two spaces with two places to sleep. It's not luxurious and it is not a lot of privacy, but massive great fun to sail in such a boat with your friends. Sometimes there's a quarter berth, which is a usually semi-private place to sleep which is partially under the cockpit, or even two quarter berths. So such boats might sleep three or four in separate beds. Newer boats of this size sometimes have even more separate sleeping spaces than this.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.
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Old 21-09-2015, 14:10   #81
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

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Originally Posted by northoceanbeach View Post
I didn't like your advice either, but we all have a right to our opinion. I'm glad you posted yours. It would be boring if we all agreed. It just seems that you have your opinion and it is inflexible, even when presented with advice and stories from others that it doesn't have to be that way. But I go out and practice different skills for two hours all the time. I practice reefing in light wind so I get the technique down just right, I practice heaving two, I practice sail trim.

I read charts, and books on how to read charts, I plot imaginary waypoints, I practice with my compass.

I read books, I ask questions online. I read my manuals, I tinker with my engine, all sorts of things. I think all of these things will prepare me better than your advice. I am learning my boat like the back of my hand. Even my projects that don't work right away teach me something, like working on my electronics failures for a while showed me what all the wires go to and why.

But I don't want to spend four years sailing dinghies before I can buy a keelboat. I just don't think it's good advice. I think the best way to learn how to coastal cruise is to buy a keel boat and practice coastal cruising.

There are just so many things you need to learn, I think perfect sail trim is really far down the list. Of all the things on the water that can put you and others in danger, is perfect sail trim going to save you? If I was caught in a storm in the Atlantic on a 35 foot boat and its owner, I would rather be with the owner that had owned the boat for a year and had been learning big boat skills, than the guy who just bought the boat, had never touched a Diesel engine, or a bilge pump or any of the systems on a big boat, but had spent a long time sailing lasers. Is he going to save us?
"Don't worry guys, I've sailed a lot of lasers, why are my batteries sitting in a cardboard box in a foot of water in the bilge? Why is my propane tank under the v berth? I don't know, lasers don't have those things."
If you had lots of experience sailing small boats, you wouldn't be worrying about your engine so much or your big boat skills.

For one thing, if you can sail the small boats especially compete on one racing you will pick up the "big boat skills" really fast. Plus you may already know pumps and engines from cars and will also pickup on that quickly

Anyway, your sails have a lot more power than your engine anyway once the wind comes up and it always comes up.

Most folks rely waaaay too much on their rudder for example. The main can easily over power it which is why many sailors with little experience are fighting the helm to make the boat go in a certain direction or totally unaware the strain they are putting on their rudder with their wheel steering because the sails are not set correctly or they only have the jib up.

As far as sail trim, practice all you want but your trim may still be far off and you wouldn't know it if you didn't have enough experience.

It is a sailboat so I'm thinking the skill of sailing is very important .......and may be more important in that storm you were talking about to turn the boat in the direction you need it .......

Also, if you had years of racing/sailing experince you quite possibly would have avoided that storm all together.
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Old 21-09-2015, 14:11   #82
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by northoceanbeach View Post
I didn't like your advice either, but we all have a right to our opinion. I'm glad you posted yours. It would be boring if we all agreed. It just seems that you have your opinion and it is inflexible, even when presented with advice and stories from others that it doesn't have to be that way. But I go out and practice different skills for two hours all the time. I practice reefing in light wind so I get the technique down just right, I practice heaving two, I practice sail trim.

I read charts, and books on how to read charts, I plot imaginary waypoints, I practice with my compass.

I read books, I ask questions online. I read my manuals, I tinker with my engine, all sorts of things. I think all of these things will prepare me better than your advice. I am learning my boat like the back of my hand. Even my projects that don't work right away teach me something, like working on my electronics failures for a while showed me what all the wires go to and why.

But I don't want to spend four years sailing dinghies before I can buy a keelboat. I just don't think it's good advice. I think the best way to learn how to coastal cruise is to buy a keel boat and practice coastal cruising.

There are just so many things you need to learn, I think perfect sail trim is really far down the list. Of all the things on the water that can put you and others in danger, is perfect sail trim going to save you? If I was caught in a storm in the Atlantic on a 35 foot boat and its owner, I would rather be with the owner that had owned the boat for a year and had been learning big boat skills, than the guy who just bought the boat, had never touched a Diesel engine, or a bilge pump or any of the systems on a big boat, but had spent a long time sailing lasers. Is he going to save us?
"Don't worry guys, I've sailed a lot of lasers, why are my batteries sitting in a cardboard box in a foot of water in the bilge? Why is my propane tank under the v berth? I don't know, lasers don't have those things."
Excellent post.

I don't know anyone who started out cruising with even 10% of skills needed to be a good seaman. Everybody, and I mean everybody, starts out as a bumbling amateur and gradually figures it out (or doesn't ). Dinghy racing is how I started out in sailing, and it's an excellent start. But it only gives you 5% of what you need to know. It's by no mean mandatory. A better start -- if you have to choose one -- is the RYA courses up to and through Yachtmaster Offshore. But even that is only the briefest of outlines and only a tiny proportion of what you really need to know. Still less than 10%. Crewing on other people's boats is also excellent preparation, especially if you can find a skipper who's willing to share his knowledge with you.

Some people would like to make this a more exclusive club than it inherently is.

To be a good seaman with all the skills you really need is a tremendous challenge which takes many years to achieve. When you started cruising in a keelboat -- you WILL be a bumbling amateur, just like all of us were (or are still). If you really want to do it, then don't let anyone talk you out of it, but DO go into it with open eyes, healthy caution, and a voracious appetite for learning.
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Old 21-09-2015, 14:15   #83
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

Jenner, before you jump into the monohull equation only....have you tried a trimaran like a Farrier/Corsair F27 or F31? I used to sail them out of long beach harbor and ventura harbor over to Catalina or other Channel islands.

They are fast, sexy, dream machines to sail for costal sailing. As concerning the idea of 2 heads....smile...one inside the hull and the second is a plastic bucket with a towel thrown across your waist. Don't laugh...it works. many a sailor goes up to the bow pulpit to take care of bodily functions.

The weird thing about humans is that when you have guests aboard no one feels comfortable with the poop thing. No one wants to smell someone else's rotten waste being eliminated. That is why the nice catamarans with 4 cabins with 4 doors and then 4 toilet doors and powered exhaust fans are slick. Nothing like someone having a bowel movement and stinking the whole cabin up....rich experience wouldn't you say?

These F series cruisers can do in the mid teens to high teens coming home with a swell and some wind. They surf for long periods of time. They do not roll like most monos will on a downwind leg.

The other key point is this. They are kept on a trailer. No moorage fees, no corrosion to deal with because they use outboards that can be flushed when done for the weekend. Many places have yacht facilities where you just leave your rig up and you just launch it with a crane (self operated) or pull it over to the launching ramp and 'in she goes'. Check yachtworld.com
Another real good boat available on the west coast are the Jim Brown Searunners.

The last point for trailerable boats...you can take a boat to Ensenada and take a bus home. Get the truck and go down and pull it back. Want to go up and sail the San Juans....Pull your boat up there at 55mph and in she goes. Want to go to Chesapeake Bay...pull your boat there. Want to the Abacos or Bahamas....pull your boat to Fort Lauderdale and jump in....that, sir, is an expanded sailing area only a trailerable can do without the trials and time required by untrailerable boats. Check it out..Corsairs or Farriers are designed by Ian Farrier and available in your price range. Buy what you want...but try sailing a trimaran before committing to anything. Would be interested in your opinion after you try...smile
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Old 21-09-2015, 14:41   #84
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

All good points. In socal, have a place to store the boat before you have the boat. In my marina, waitlist for a 30' slip is a year or so. I've been on the 35' list for awhile, looks to me like maybe 6 years.

Oh, and great inexpensive boats for what the OP asked for (minus the 2nd head):

Catalina 320. 2 cabins, 1 head.

Or as somebody said, a Catalina 30 - there's a reason they made over 7000 of them.

No need for a Pac Seacraft or a westsail to sail in the pacific Pacific around so cal.
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Old 21-09-2015, 15:20   #85
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

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Originally Posted by alansmith View Post
Jenner, before you jump into the monohull equation only....have you tried a trimaran like a Farrier/Corsair F27 or F31? I used to sail them out of long beach harbor and ventura harbor over to Catalina or other Channel islands.

They are fast, sexy, dream machines to sail for costal sailing. As concerning the idea of 2 heads....smile...one inside the hull and the second is a plastic bucket with a towel thrown across your waist. Don't laugh...it works. many a sailor goes up to the bow pulpit to take care of bodily functions.

The weird thing about humans is that when you have guests aboard no one feels comfortable with the poop thing. No one wants to smell someone else's rotten waste being eliminated. That is why the nice catamarans with 4 cabins with 4 doors and then 4 toilet doors and powered exhaust fans are slick. Nothing like someone having a bowel movement and stinking the whole cabin up....rich experience wouldn't you say?

These F series cruisers can do in the mid teens to high teens coming home with a swell and some wind. They surf for long periods of time. They do not roll like most monos will on a downwind leg.

The other key point is this. They are kept on a trailer. No moorage fees, no corrosion to deal with because they use outboards that can be flushed when done for the weekend. Many places have yacht facilities where you just leave your rig up and you just launch it with a crane (self operated) or pull it over to the launching ramp and 'in she goes'. Check yachtworld.com
Another real good boat available on the west coast are the Jim Brown Searunners.

The last point for trailerable boats...you can take a boat to Ensenada and take a bus home. Get the truck and go down and pull it back. Want to go up and sail the San Juans....Pull your boat up there at 55mph and in she goes. Want to go to Chesapeake Bay...pull your boat there. Want to the Abacos or Bahamas....pull your boat to Fort Lauderdale and jump in....that, sir, is an expanded sailing area only a trailerable can do without the trials and time required by untrailerable boats. Check it out..Corsairs or Farriers are designed by Ian Farrier and available in your price range. Buy what you want...but try sailing a trimaran before committing to anything. Would be interested in your opinion after you try...smile
I think this is the ticket OP should consider ... you've got the right idea ... F27's are cool and very fast. Although, he will need some serious practice with an experienced owner to handle, but shouldn't take too long. Not much in the way of accommodations, though. But hey it's SoCal sleep under the stars on the trapize ... cool!

And for men all boats come with two heads ... just don't be one of the those sailors they find washed up on the beach with their pants down: one hand for the boat at all times, lol
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Old 21-09-2015, 15:22   #86
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

I read this forum for a year before I decided on buying my 320. I've had it now for two months and 1600 miles. I can't find a flaw.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepbluetj View Post
All good points. In socal, have a place to store the boat before you have the boat. In my marina, waitlist for a 30' slip is a year or so. I've been on the 35' list for awhile, looks to me like maybe 6 years.

Oh, and great inexpensive boats for what the OP asked for (minus the 2nd head):

Catalina 320. 2 cabins, 1 head.

Or as somebody said, a Catalina 30 - there's a reason they made over 7000 of them.

No need for a Pac Seacraft or a westsail to sail in the pacific Pacific around so cal.
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Old 21-09-2015, 15:28   #87
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by alansmith View Post
Jenner, before you jump into the monohull equation only....have you tried a trimaran like a Farrier/Corsair F27 or F31? I used to sail them out of long beach harbor and ventura harbor over to Catalina or other Channel islands.

They are fast, sexy, dream machines to sail for costal sailing. As concerning the idea of 2 heads....smile...one inside the hull and the second is a plastic bucket with a towel thrown across your waist. Don't laugh...it works. many a sailor goes up to the bow pulpit to take care of bodily functions.

The weird thing about humans is that when you have guests aboard no one feels comfortable with the poop thing. No one wants to smell someone else's rotten waste being eliminated. That is why the nice catamarans with 4 cabins with 4 doors and then 4 toilet doors and powered exhaust fans are slick. Nothing like someone having a bowel movement and stinking the whole cabin up....rich experience wouldn't you say?

These F series cruisers can do in the mid teens to high teens coming home with a swell and some wind. They surf for long periods of time. They do not roll like most monos will on a downwind leg.

The other key point is this. They are kept on a trailer. No moorage fees, no corrosion to deal with because they use outboards that can be flushed when done for the weekend. Many places have yacht facilities where you just leave your rig up and you just launch it with a crane (self operated) or pull it over to the launching ramp and 'in she goes'. Check yachtworld.com
Another real good boat available on the west coast are the Jim Brown Searunners.

The last point for trailerable boats...you can take a boat to Ensenada and take a bus home. Get the truck and go down and pull it back. Want to go up and sail the San Juans....Pull your boat up there at 55mph and in she goes. Want to go to Chesapeake Bay...pull your boat there. Want to the Abacos or Bahamas....pull your boat to Fort Lauderdale and jump in....that, sir, is an expanded sailing area only a trailerable can do without the trials and time required by untrailerable boats. Check it out..Corsairs or Farriers are designed by Ian Farrier and available in your price range. Buy what you want...but try sailing a trimaran before committing to anything. Would be interested in your opinion after you try...smile
I think if the OP was interested in two heads he probably wants to at least have standing head room. A Corsair F-27 is a great fun boat, but very expensive and hard to find- most people would find it a chore just to spend a weekend aboard. James Baldwin had one for a while and he wrote about the experience (even his diminutive wife didn't like the cabin height) on Voyages of the Atom. An F-31 is outside the OP's stated budget.

Nor'Sea 27's often come with a trailer. Trailering was part of the design equation.

BTW, Baldwin bought a Triton when he was 18 (in Michigan no less) with little money in his pocket and no experience and proceeded to sail it around the world. Twice. No Laser for him.
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Old 21-09-2015, 16:15   #88
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

as a biased owner I second the recommendation for a Morgan OI 33. Roomy, safe and easy to sail but no racer. As for multiple cabins, multiple heads and electric winches I suspect you wildly overstate the degree of privacy on board any boat and overestimate the effort used to hoist and trim sails using manual winches.
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Old 21-09-2015, 16:27   #89
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

Hell lad just go buy a catalina 34 only 1 head but thats all u need will sail great as a coastal cruiser and is very forgiving ...just my opinion.
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Old 21-09-2015, 16:33   #90
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Re: Best quality coastal cruiser

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Most of the time it will just be you and someone you know very well on the boat anyway. After you live for awhile in a boat you realize you don't want to have regular guests in such a small area, even a 40 footer.

.
Every once in a while a true gem slips through. We have found this true for our (40 ft) boat.
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