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Old 19-11-2017, 06:00   #1
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bedding bolts

what do people use to bed bolts from the deck ?

1. butyl

2. 4200

3. life caulk

Thanks,

arch
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Old 19-11-2017, 07:22   #2
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Re: bedding bolts

I’ve become a butyl convert.
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Old 19-11-2017, 07:28   #3
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Re: bedding bolts

We used butyl for all of our deck fittings, pulpit, push pit, stantions bases, cleats, etc. No leaks at all, I would refer you to mainesails site for proper application instructions. Butyl is easy to use and it works.

Fair winds,
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Old 19-11-2017, 08:22   #4
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Re: bedding bolts

After quite a bit of consideration I used 4000UV to recently rebed most fittings on my deck. Inputs were:

1. Butyl requires a specialized process: repeated sessions of tightening down, can't turn bolt itself or it will wind up the material. I needed to bed it and forget it, on a schedule.

2. As I was working on my refit, the yard had boat after boat come in for repairs where butyl had been used for bedding. The pattern was the same; the contact area between the butyl and the deck became contaminated and the butyl no longer performed. Saw bolts, chainplates, etc. all fail or close to failure as a result, not to mention leaks.

One guy at the yard, who's been there thirty years, dismissed butyl as old technology. When asked if they did not use/recommend it because it's more time consuming he laughed. His reply was "If it takes more time, we charge for it. That's not a disincentive. We are incentivized to use the best material. Butyl fails regularly, even when installed properly."

Everything on my boat was bedded 32 years ago with 5200. None of it had failed, although a few stanchions had come close (based on examining the dirt pattern under the bases) due to torquing of the stanchions. I was sorely tempted to put everything back down with 5200, but elected to use 4000UV based on numerous recommendations. It has better adhesive strength between metal and fiberglass than 5200 (while it's tensile strength is not as great, the caulk itself sticks better to the materials).

One issue is that 4000UV is a relatively new product. The above mentioned boatwright shrugged and admitted "We might see boats coming back in 10 years with failures, that's possible." So the jury is out in that regard. Another issue is that it sets up very fast, comparatively speaking. You have to have everything prepared and ready; clean up is difficult if you run out of working time.

I did use Bed-it butyl for some fixtures that I may move or remove. I've worked with stickier formulations of butyl, which is "better" but their application/cleanup properties are a bit of a nightmare. Bed-it is the best compromise in my experience.

I think in truth it comes down to preparation (uncontaminated, properly prepared surfaces) and maintenance. If you don't do it right to begin with it's not going to last, and if you don't maintain it, it's not going to last. Butyl has the advantage of easier maintenance, although disassembling some fixtures bedded with butyl can be a bear.
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Old 19-11-2017, 09:26   #5
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Re: bedding bolts

I use 5200, 4000, Boat Life, Life Caulk and silicone for various materials and applications.
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Old 19-11-2017, 09:35   #6
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Re: bedding bolts

Butyl tape actually takes LESS time overall, except that the time is back-end loaded to the next person who will work on it. I am not surprised that a yard hand would not care about the next guy.

90% of the job in re-bedding hardware is in the prep. The amount of time required to remove all traces of old bedding compounds, especially that devil-product silcone, can be excessive. If all traces of silicone-based sealants are not removed it WILL leak. Nothing sticks to cured silicone, not even fresh silicone. Other adhesive-sealants can be difficult to remove as well -some worse than others. Folks who use 5200 really don't care about the next guy. That's ridiculous even with the proper release compound it can be a chore.

Butyl doesn't last forever. No sealant does. Everything will need to be replaced in time. It may be 10,15, or even 20 years depending on the types of motion and movement the hardware sees. Butyl is incredibly self-healing. Its only real fault is that you can't twist the fastener much, or it will cause problems.

And when it needs to be repaired and re-bedded it only takes moments to scrape it off and prep it for reapplication. If it is not YOUR boat you don't care about the next guy, as the long odds are that it won't be you. And if it is...well you are getting paid by the hour, right?
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Old 19-11-2017, 09:55   #7
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Re: bedding bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHeron View Post
Butyl tape actually takes LESS time overall, except that the time is back-end loaded to the next person who will work on it.
I don't understand why you believe this to be true. With prep (cleaning, potting, countersinking, etc.) for any sort of rebedding being essentially the same and taking roughly an equivalent amount of time to do right. I also don't see how it is back-end loaded on the next person, as the main difference is that butyl cleans up more easily if it was used for the prior bedding.

In my experience butyl is more time consuming:
1) You have to carefully apply the tape to the bottom of the fixture as uniformly as possible, then create a donut around each of the bolts.
2) You have to be careful when seating the fixture. If the bolts don't slip straight down, working the hardware down without disturbing the donut requires some care.
3) You cannot turn the bolt or it will wrap the butyl in the threads, pulling it way from the surfaces to be sealed.
4) You have to torque down the fasteners at least three times in my experience, ideally over several days depending on working temperature and the specifics of the hardware.
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Old 19-11-2017, 10:37   #8
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Re: bedding bolts

I use 5200 almost exclusively. Nothing else works as well. If it's something that comes apart often, or is exposed to sunlight, then the material dictates the compound. Wood? Lanocote; Plate glass? Silicone. Etc. But I designed my boat so as to need the minimum amount of sealant anyway--I hate holes going into decks and houses.
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Old 19-11-2017, 11:16   #9
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Re: bedding bolts

I too have had butyl tape fail completely on numerous occasions, sometimes after less than a year. The problem is worst on anything that is exposed to repeated stress cycles. The butyl continuously oozes (or is forced) out of the joint, and loses adhesion.

I'm back to 5200, and 4000UV, depending on the UV exposure.
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Old 19-11-2017, 12:51   #10
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Re: bedding bolts

Uhless you are just sealing the fasteners, butyl tape takes considerably longer to install a fitting than LifeCaulk. Interesting that some have had problems with it because it doesn't set and continues to move. That has been my big reason for using it. Butyl remains flexible and doesn't depend on a one time bond with fitting that won't reseal after the fitting has moved and the bond has failed. My forty year old Sabre 28 used butyl to seal the hull to deck join. It's the only boat I've owned that doesn't have a single leak in that joint and the only boat that's used butyl to seal the joint.

One thing that is a big no no with butyl is using it where it will be exposed to diesel fuel or other petroleum products. I quit using mineral spirits for clean up because it quicly dissolves butyl into a slurry that stains porous gel coat.

Don't like polyurethane products. They seem to go off in the tube once opened and skim over very quickly once applied so they don't properly bond to both surfaces that you're trying to seal. They also don't clean up as easily as Polysulfide sealants such as Life Caulk.

Been messing around with boats for a long time and LifeCaulk has been my go to sealant when I don't want to use butyl. Have pulled up fittings that have been down 30 years and the LifeCaulk is still pliable the seal good.

Don't get me started on silllycone. It belongs in boobs not boats.
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Old 19-11-2017, 13:38   #11
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Re: bedding bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Uhless you are just sealing the fasteners, butyl tape takes considerably longer to install a fitting than LifeCaulk. Interesting that some have had problems with it because it doesn't set and continues to move. That has been my big reason for using it. Butyl remains flexible and doesn't depend on a one time bond with fitting that won't reseal after the fitting has moved and the bond has failed. My forty year old Sabre 28 used butyl to seal the hull to deck join. It's the only boat I've owned that doesn't have a single leak in that joint and the only boat that's used butyl to seal the joint.

One thing that is a big no no with butyl is using it where it will be exposed to diesel fuel or other petroleum products. I quit using mineral spirits for clean up because it quicly dissolves butyl into a slurry that stains porous gel coat.

Don't like polyurethane products. They seem to go off in the tube once opened and skim over very quickly once applied so they don't properly bond to both surfaces that you're trying to seal. They also don't clean up as easily as Polysulfide sealants such as Life Caulk.

Been messing around with boats for a long time and LifeCaulk has been my go to sealant when I don't want to use butyl. Have pulled up fittings that have been down 30 years and the LifeCaulk is still pliable the seal good.

Don't get me started on silllycone. It belongs in boobs not boats.
The solution to keeping opened tubes of caulk fresh, which works on all types, is to fill the cap with grease before you put it on. This seals out the air.
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Old 19-11-2017, 15:57   #12
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Re: bedding bolts

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Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
I don't understand why you believe this to be true. With prep (cleaning, potting, countersinking, etc.) for any sort of rebedding being essentially the same and taking roughly an equivalent amount of time to do right. I also don't see how it is back-end loaded on the next person, as the main difference is that butyl cleans up more easily if it was used for the prior bedding.
Exactly my point. the next time it will take almost no time at all to clean up. The time is saved on the back end, for the next guy. If you plan on keeping your boat a long time that very well may be you. As far as counter-sinking, cleaning and other prep it is the same the first time. It should be done regarless of the sealant used.

Quote:
In my experience butyl is more time consuming:
1) You have to carefully apply the tape to the bottom of the fixture as uniformly as possible, then create a donut around each of the bolts.
It doesn't need to be all that uniform, just cut and apply. It smooths itself out and flows pretty well in my experience unless it is really cold. It takes no longer than oozing out sticky goop from a tube, especially when clean-up of sticky goopy mess and over-flow is taken into account. Butyl doesn't even NEED to be cleaned up at this point. There is no time clock running. You can clean it up the excess 2 years from now and it will come off just as easy. Try that with an adhesive sealant.

Quote:
2) You have to be careful when seating the fixture. If the bolts don't slip straight down, working the hardware down without disturbing the donut requires some care.
Not really. I have found it is very forgiving. Maybe you are jsut being too cheap with the application. Use more of it, clean it off afterwards. Having a proper counter-sunk opening is the key here too. Give it plenty of room to make a solid o-ring seal. This isn't juggling chainsaws. A little hand-eye coordination is required, no worse than doing a jibe single-handed.

Quote:
3) You cannot turn the bolt or it will wrap the butyl in the threads, pulling it way from the surfaces to be sealed.
Very true. Not really a big deal. It helps to have a helper on the deck side that keeps the bolt from turning and good communications so that you don't turn the wrong one. Not a big deal. Sort of like sailing. Proper communications so a crash jibe doesn't happen.

Quote:
4) You have to torque down the fasteners at least three times in my experience, ideally over several days depending on working temperature and the specifics of the hardware.
Nope, unless it is really cold out have not found this to be true in my experience. This is old-school sailor superstition I think. Someone somewhere though this was a "must" but the stuff flows. It takes a little bit of feel and an eye for how it is squishing down and out to know when it is just right. If you don't tighten it enough the first time you might have to come back again later if there is a leak. Usually not, unless it was cool out when you were installing the sealant. I've found that tightening it once is all it takes.

Again, maybe you are using really cheap butyl tape or not using enough of it. It's not very expensive and if you are working with a clean deck you can often re-use the excess that flows out if it doesn't get contaminated by dirt or fiberglass shavings from when you are counter-sinking the holes. Prep is your friend here, just as it is for any other adhesive sealant.
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Old 19-11-2017, 20:32   #13
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Re: bedding bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHeron View Post
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nope, unless it is really cold out have not found this to be true in my experience. This is old-school sailor superstition I think. Someone somewhere though this was a "must" but the stuff flows. It takes a little bit of feel and an eye for how it is squishing down and out to know when it is just right. If you don't tighten it enough the first time you might have to come back again later if there is a leak. Usually not, unless it was cool out when you were installing the sealant. I've found that tightening it once is all it takes.

Again, maybe you are using really cheap butyl tape or not using enough of it. It's not very expensive and if you are working with a clean deck you can often re-use the excess that flows out if it doesn't get contaminated by dirt or fiberglass shavings from when you are counter-sinking the holes. Prep is your friend here, just as it is for any other adhesive sealant.
Thank you for expressing my thoughts.

It was Don Casey, of all people who should know better, that started that nonsense. Indeed, Maine Sail mentions it in his writeup about Bed-it-with-Butyl.

I have found that warming the tape, regardless of outside temperatures, and rolling it into a ball instead of laying it flat, works most successfully. As long as the "bead" of tape is completely surrounding any hole below for a deck fitting "foot," it doesn't have to cover the entire base, it just has to be continuous to seal 360. I countersink the holes, not much time required to do that once.
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Old 21-11-2017, 02:40   #14
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Re: bedding bolts

Just a thought,

Some already know this, but all butyl is not created equal, should you choose butyl, you need to get the correct stuff.

Again, Mainsail's site for the correct butyl and how to install is the way to go.
If you are going to do it, do right, short cuts will just cause you pain later....

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Old 21-11-2017, 03:43   #15
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Re: bedding bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHeron View Post
Nope, unless it is really cold out have not found this to be true in my experience. This is old-school sailor superstition I think. Someone somewhere though this was a "must" but the stuff flows. It takes a little bit of feel and an eye for how it is squishing down and out to know when it is just right. If you don't tighten it enough the first time you might have to come back again later if there is a leak. Usually not, unless it was cool out when you were installing the sealant. I've found that tightening it once is all it takes.

Again, maybe you are using really cheap butyl tape or not using enough of it. It's not very expensive and if you are working with a clean deck you can often re-use the excess that flows out if it doesn't get contaminated by dirt or fiberglass shavings from when you are counter-sinking the holes. Prep is your friend here, just as it is for any other adhesive sealant.
My statement was based on direct experience over the years. Most recently (a couple of months ago) for example, I bedded my stern cleats with Bed-it, which I don't consider a cheap product (like the RV stuff). The temperature in the shed was about 90 F. I have a fairly good feel for when 5/16" stainless bolts are well torqued (and applied Tef-gel where the nuts and washers go on to prevent galling). I've not been as careful in the past with butyl application but in this case followed RC's directions to the letter, with the entire foot of the cleat getting an even layer of butyl, rings around the bolts, chamfered holes, etc. It took three tightening sessions to get the nuts tight, each round being fairly "aggressive". It was important to get it right as once the propane locker insert was reinstalled access to the nuts would be extremely difficult. I had the same experience with other fixtures I mounted with Bed-it (clutches, winch bases, etc.).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing Bed-it as a bedding compound. I think it's great. If I didn't think so I would not be using it at all. And maybe in the grand scheme of things the actual application time is the same.
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