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Old 19-01-2015, 04:30   #16
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Re: Bad Survey?

According to attorneys Butler and Pennekamp, the Florida Yacht Broker’s
Association recently added new language to the standard Central Listing Agreement that “warrants and represents to the broker that the owner will disclose all known defects and/or deficiencies, which would materially impact a buyer’s decision to purchase the vessel.” This is the kind of legalese that makes it critical for both the seller and the broker to understand what constitutes a “material defect” and why its disclosure is required.


http://www.boatinternational.com/bi-...chting-101.pdf

According to BoatUS, Sellers must disclose information about defects that affect the value, use or safety of boats, but they don’t have to volunteer information about less dramatic problems unless they are asked directly.

http://www.boatus.com/marineservices/TS007.pdf

See also an example of a seller/broker's disclosure statement
Vessel Disclosure Statement | Everson Marine Surveying
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Old 19-01-2015, 05:22   #17
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Re: Bad Survey?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
A member on the forums here recently saved me a wasted journey by doing this.
I got a lot of useful info from an owners group ref the first boat I surveyed, they told me of a manufacturing defect that was known in that model of boat, and the one I surveyed had it, the owner didn't know about it, but once pointed out, you couldn't miss it kind of thing.
I believe that owners group saved me at least a significant expense.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:06   #18
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Re: Bad Survey?

What is the potential liability for mentioning a surveyor who makes false statements or claims regarding a boats condition after he causes damage during the survey?
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:29   #19
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Re: Bad Survey?

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Originally Posted by sailingforfun View Post
Jim Cate is spot on, the surveyor did his job which is why I declined the boat. It was not a generic or manufacturers flaw. The conclusion was the problem occurred during usage.

My concern is the personal liability if I were to misstate/overstate the problem and a slick attorney would file suit against me claiming I caused the owner of the boat to lose money(value) on the sale of the boat.

I think it's a catch 22. (no good deed goes unpunished)
If I were trying to sell a boat and found someone badmouthing my boat on the Internet or anywhere else, there would be a lawsuit.

1) It's not your duty to warn others about a possible defective boat that doesn't belong to you.

2) A survey is nothing but an opinion. A professional opinion, but still an opinion.

The boat didn't suit your needs, walk away and find one that does.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:47   #20
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Re: Bad Survey?

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
If I were trying to sell a boat and found someone badmouthing my boat on the Internet or anywhere else, there would be a lawsuit.

1) It's not your duty to warn others about a possible defective boat that doesn't belong to you.

2. The boat didn't suit your needs, walk away and find one that does.

1) I disagree. a64 mentioned it: Owners Association websites provide invaluable information to owners and prospective purchasers. We find things that should be improved and document them. A perfect example is the ongoing (27 years!!!) of engine wiring harnesses and ammeters in cockpit panels. When the boats were built and few people had much of anything electrical on their boats, the old system, just barely, worked. Come the 20th century, things changed. Production "efficiency" that used crappy trailer plug connectors to make it easy to build the boats and connect engine wiring to the cockpit panels, ended up literally dissolving into dust and creating shorts. Last I looked, owners websites are on the internet.

2. I agree.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:54   #21
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Re: Bad Survey?

You have no way of knowing if repairs were made or not. You found problems when you had a survey the next guy will also. Other posters are correct in saying to learn to do your own survey first.

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Old 11-05-2015, 12:46   #22
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Re: Bad Survey?

There appears to be 2 threads going on here:

1) What happens when a surveyor misses something? The OP was not asking about this but it comes down to if the surveyor should have found it.
- If there is a 6" hole in the side of the boat in plain sight, no amount of contract language saying the surveyor isn't responsible for issues that are missed, will save him.
- On the other hand if there is rot in a bulkhead in a completely sealed space that can't be reached and the surveyor wasn't allowed/authorized to drill a hole to get access, the court is unlikely to hold the surveyor at fault for not finding it.
- Then you get the much more common gray areas. The issue isn't in plain view and a little difficult to reach but it can be found without distructive testing or dissassembling. Thats where the surveyer benefits from the liability language in thier report. If it's remotely legitimate that they shouldn't have found the issue, the court will tend to side with them.

2) The real question: If the buyer doesn't follow thru on the purchase is he responsible for notifying future buyers and if so how to go about it.

Trying to post specific issues with a specific boat opens a can of worms. Ideally, the owner would share that info with future buyers. Or you could let the seller know that the survey is available to future buyers at a discount (you don't have to give the seller a copy of the survey, just notify them of an issue that you are using to justify asking for your deposit back).

If the seller isn't interested, it opens a can of worms. If you share info without the sellers permission and anything you share is incorrect, the seller can come after you for messing up the sale. Also keep in mind, the seller may have repaired some of the issues.

PS: Some people have indicated that the survey cost was wasted money. If you find sufficent issues to justify walking away from the sale, it was likely money well spent as it will save you money in the long run.
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Old 11-05-2015, 16:12   #23
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Re: Bad Survey?

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
1) I disagree. ........
Of course you do. You almost always do.

Saying that brand XYZ boast are known for poor electrical systems is one thing. Saying that you looked at a particular boat that's on the market and it's poorly maintained or a POS is something else entirely and could get you sued.
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Old 11-05-2015, 16:16   #24
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Re: Bad Survey?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
.............. Some people have indicated that the survey cost was wasted money. If you find sufficent issues to justify walking away from the sale, it was likely money well spent as it will save you money in the long run.
Exactly. It's not wise to plunk down $100K or so on a purchase without knowing everything you can about it. Same with a home inspection when you purchase a house.
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Old 11-05-2015, 20:00   #25
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Re: Bad Survey?

Don't you think you should give the owner the benefit of the doubt before you call his boat a fraud on the internet?

How do you know your surveyor was right?
I use surveyors to give me bargaining chips on price and for the insurance company. But I find the accuracy of surveys appallingly bad. Both what they don't find and even what they do find.

What successful surveyors generally do very well is to be convincing that they know what they are talking about -- even when they don't.

Take rot in deck coring. You can't diagnose this accurately except by drilling lots of holes. Tapping and moisture meters will give you a suspicion but nothing more. But if there's even a slight chance of a rotten core a surveyor will write it up.

Why? Because if there's no rot, and he says there might be rot nothing bad happens to him. Maybe the boat doesn't sell but the surveyor still get's his fee. And the customer will tell his friends about the great surveyor who kept him from buying a boat with core rot. On the other hand, if the surveyor says there's NO rot and there IS, he's looking at a lawsuit. What would you do?

And to continue the example, some people would never buy a boat with even a chance of core rot. But others (like myself) don't consider a few bad deck spots in an otherwise sound boat a red flag for coastal sailing. If I had a choice between (A) a boat from a top quality builder known for thick, void free laminates that has a few bad deck spots or (B) a new boat from a mediocre builder with a deck that flexes when I hop a bit -- I'd take "A" every-time.

I do think you should tell the broker (and make sure the owner learns) why you passed on the boat. The owner can then fix the problem or tell the next buyer about it and reduce price accordingly. As someone already mentioned, if he doesn't reveal a serious known problem, he's asking for a lawsuit.
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