azores 2014 how safe is it?

[ka4wja]

Salty,
I'm trying to be nice here, but huh???

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Nice video but I would dump the junk like the BBQ

If you don't grill, that's fine...but for many of us, grillin' is a way of life!!!

Seriously, I've used grills on board boats since I was a kid, in the 1960's....only now-a-days, it's propane rather than charcoal....
I realize that this concept is quite odd to many folks of other cultures around the world, but it is something that many of us in the south do...


Perhaps, those of you in San Fran can't/don't cook outdoors much...but that does not bother me at all....and I'd never someone to dump their coffee pot or French press, because I don't drink coffee!!!

Come on sir, where are your manners???
If you, or others, choose not to grill, that's okay by me and I would NEVER make any comment about it, nor any other personal choices/habits people find that they enjoy....

So, Salty would you please give the minute criticism a rest!! (it's fairly irritating to a lot of folks here...and I'm about ready to click on the ignore button!!)
You know that old saying, if can't say something nice, don't say anything....



I outa' here!

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[atoll]

as an aside from the monkey bussiness! we allways carry a bar-be-que,actually 2 one is a gas plate type and the other a webber,charcoal type as it provides redundancy if we were ever to run out of cooking gas and not use the microwave

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

You know that old saying, if can't say something nice, don't say anything....

Ok i don't like BBQ's but i LOVE your boat! Come back here !

[ka4wja]

Ben,
Please be specific here....are you asking about a trade-winds passage westbound, such as from the Med/Gib, Canaries, to the Caribbean, and points farther (such as the US, Panama, etc..)???
Or are you considering a westbound mid-latitude (or even high-latitude) passage, such as UK, Azores, Madeira, to US East Coast / Chesapeake???
Because they are much different passages..

The trade-wind passage to Caribbean, etc. is a pretty easy Milk Run, and many 100's of boats do it every year (typically in late Nov thru Feb/March)...

The mid-latitude westbound passage (sometimes the "delivery route") is NOT done by many people...most years, just a couple and some years, nobody...
(if this is the passage you're considering, I can be of some help....but the guy who has done it very nicely is John Stevens on s/v Sarah....he's got a pretty good article about it somewhere..)

Originally Posted by Orchidius

First of all I'd like to thank you for starting the thread about the Azores. I've been able to get a lot from it, and I'm sure many others have as well.

The one downside in my opinion is that the topic focuses on the eastbound route as far as weather/routing is concerned. I'm unsure wether this is because the majority of the cruisers on this forum will be crossing the Atlantic in that direction, or just by chance.

Do you think there is enough interest to open a second topic discussing weather/routing for the Westbound passage, or to integrate it in the existing topic at all?

Please advise which passage you're considering and we'll do what we can to help...






Now as for how much experience do you need...and how do you know when/if you have enough???
{That's a tough one for me...as I grew up cruising in the 60's and 70's, and sort-of got my basic experience in early (standing watches and helping with navigation, etc. when still in elementary school, etc.)....
When I crewed on a couple deliveries in my early 20's, I found I had much more experience than the skippers did, as well as a better navigator, etc..
So, I really have never faced that "do I have what it takes?" question....I just always assumed that I did and never thought about it...}
Sorry I digressed....
I don't think you'll find ANYONE who has actually sailed offshore, who believes that there is any validity to the "travel with others" approach, and certainly know that the fallacy that there is "safety in numbers" is a joke!!
I have NO intention of instilling any fear here, not at all!!
But, PLEASE understand that no matter how many 100's of other boats are sailing with you, when offshore YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN!!
(and this then revolves back to your question as to how do know if you've the experience necessary???)

Originally Posted by Orchidius

There is something missing in the list though, something that is also missed by pretty much all books and guides: experience. A lot of people that are doing this for the first time are really unsure of this aspect. When is one adequately experienced? When one or a couple of offshore passages have been made in experienced company? But then again circumstances might be really different when you're on your own. Sail in experienced company u.til you think you've pretty much seen it all? Not really realistic eh...


What's your take on this aspect? I would like to make the trip next gear, and am confident about all the above comments, but lack the experience (like many in my marina that entertain such plans).

You've made NO mention of where you are at, NOR where you intend to sail / what exact passage you're intending, NOR how much experience you have...
So, answering you question in any detail is impossible...

But, in general....
Trade-wind passages are generally less challenging than mid-latitude (and high-latitude) passages....so, in general are attempted by many with less experience...
And, if you've read EVERYTHING about making these long passages across oceans, and have made a few 2-3 day passages, with variable / complex weather, you've probably got enough experience to have a go...(heed the advice / recommendations here in this thread as well..)

Now, yes being crew on an ocean crossing, on someone else's boat, is also a way to gain some experience.....but that's "crew" experience, not "captain" experience....and as Nick has mentioned/implied being a captain on an ocean passage is different....no, it's NOT something to fear, nor is there any particular "magic" or "mystique" involved, just a lot of concentration and commitment!!


So many years ago, the best advice my Mom and Dad gave me regarding being a captain offshore was this:
Are you ready to have others (especially those you love) place their lives in your hands 24 hours a day, for weeks on-end, and be totally and completely responsible for their lives and for everything on-board and surrounding you 24 hours-a-day, for weeks and weeks???
If you answer yes, no problem, you're ready....if the answer is no, then you're not....
(I understand that many couples, husband/wife teams, etc. are out there sailing daily that don't always think along these lines....and I have NO problem with those that think differently, or have different views/opinions on this subject....
Take 'em or leave 'em...these are just MY views...)



Ben, I hope the above helps some, but for more info/details, please advise:
--- Where you at now???
--- Where you are actually planning on voyaging (what exact passage you're considering)??
--- What current experience do you have (as crew and captain)???


Fair winds..

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[downunder]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

It heavily depend on the wife, I guess
For me sailing is very much about being on our own, without the need to accomodate others
More convenient for birthsuit sailng, sex afloat and other small pleasures also...
Can't see a problem for few weeks

DW i see you have got your priorities right.

[JPA Cate]

MarkJ,

A couple of potential advantages to your plan, for someone who wants to get straight to the Med and avoid the Azores are (always provided your vessel is weatherly), that light air sailing is some of the best you'll ever have, and if you point high enough, you can simply trim the boat to sail at about 40 deg. to the apparent wind, and turn off the autopilot. And she'll silently and competently work herself upwind. Not quite silent, as you know, there will be the sound of the water past your hull and in the rig when the wind gets up a bit more.... Life could be worse!

Ann

[downunder]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Jim brings up a good point, that I'd like to expand on.. While having self-steering and/or reliable electric autopilot(s), is a good idea for most (me, included), we are mostly talking about sailboats here...and the "jerry jug farms" I see growing on the rails of many boats surprise (and concern) me!!!

I don't want to turn this into a debate about "sailing", etc. not about engines, fuel mileage, etc....(remember these are SAILBOATS)
But, on a long Atlantic crossing, carrying some diesel separate from your tanks is acceptable by most, and some think it's a good idea....perhaps enough to motor for a day (or motor-sail for a a day or two)....so for most boats this would be 10 - 15 gallons...

{FYI, I carry 88 gal below, in 2 tanks (approx. 76 gals useable)....and under power alone, I burn about 1/2 gal per hour at 5 - 5.5 kts, with my Yanmar spinning a 21" Autoprop...giving me that 1 to 1.5 days motoring with my 3 jerry jugs...and in my most recent Atlantic crossings, I used just about 20 gallons across the whole Atlantic....and almost all of that was the last 100 miles into Horta and the next to last day into Gibraltar....and on my most recent westbound crossing, I had little to no wind from Gib to Lanzorte, Canary and I burned 20 gals motoring that leg quite a bit...but only a few gallons the whole rest of the way to the USVI....
Understand that if you have enough solar (which I do), and some alternative when the skies are overcast, such as a towed water-gernerator (which I do), there is NO need to burn any diesel for "on-board energy", and you can use whatever diesel you have for propulsion!!
I have said it before and been laughed at, but it is TRUE...
Solar panels increase your range!!! }



Again, I don't want to get into a debate about diesel, motoring, etc....I just wanted to state that many/most cruisers these days seem to be carrying WAY TOO MUCH on their rails...
Get rid of the "jerry jug farms" (and add more solar) and you'll be a LOT happier and save money too!!



I hope this helps..


John
s/v Annie Laurie

John,

your posts are always excellent.

I absolutely agree with your points on solar and jerry jug farms.

[Orchidius]

Hi John,

I appreciate you're willing to comment on my particular situation. The reason I didn't add any specifics was because I was merely hoping for a generic point of view that could be relevant to many others as well.

I'm currently located in Belgium. My hope is to start my sail direction Caribbean in may/june 2015. Should I not feel ready for it by then, I'll be happy to postpone to 2016 The rough idea is to cross Biscay, coast-hop Portugal to Morocco, then further down to Gambia and up the Gambia river. Then backtrack back to open water, to the Cape Verdes and make the crossing from there. This is a very rough plan of what I'd like to do, I'm currently in the actual planning stage and a lot of options are still open at this point. My experience if limited to some coastal sailing at this point, but I'll have a good 2 months of sailing in the English channel this summer, and will likely quit work in february next year.

Many thanks for your comments!

[s/v Jedi]

On alcohol: I never meant to suggest that non-drinkers should start drinking. I suggested that they participate in the "happy hour" event because of it's importance as team building opportunity. The Virgin Mary's that I suggested are non alcoholic.

Consuming alcohol in the amounts that I indicated, has no noticeable effect on dehydration when enough water is consumed also. Like so many things, a little is not bad while too much can kill. Even water can kill you if you consume too much of it.

Furthermore, this tradition of a drink together is not about a macho culture. It is a centuries old custom that exist for very good reasons.

If a non-alcohol boat is looking for crew, it may be best to select all non-drinkers. Probably same for smoking.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by Orchidius

Hi John,

I appreciate you're willing to comment on my particular situation. The reason I didn't add any specifics was because I was merely hoping for a generic point of view that could be relevant to many others as well.

I'm currently located in Belgium. My hope is to start my sail direction Caribbean in may/june 2015. Should I not feel ready for it by then, I'll be happy to postpone to 2016 The rough idea is to cross Biscay, coast-hop Portugal to Morocco, then further down to Gambia and up the Gambia river. Then backtrack back to open water, to the Cape Verdes and make the crossing from there. This is a very rough plan of what I'd like to do, I'm currently in the actual planning stage and a lot of options are still open at this point. My experience if limited to some coastal sailing at this point, but I'll have a good 2 months of sailing in the English channel this summer, and will likely quit work in february next year.

Many thanks for your comments!

your best routing for that from the english channel would probably be to work your way out of the english channel and head directly for the azores in may june,then on to madeira,morrocco,canaries ,gambia for the winter.

for the return trip from gambia ,you can head for the azores via the cape verdes any time from april to october.
hurricanes do start to form off the west african coast,but generally do not develop untill much further west.

if only using the azores on the return trip as a stop over,i would say october would be the latest in the season to depart from the azores before the really severe atlantic storms start.

a friend of mine did the gambia,cape verde,ponta delgada azores trip the year before last,then onto the algarve in his catamaran,with no major issues.
apart from the marina authoraties in the azores insisting he had 3rd party insurance!

[chuckr]

a couple of last comments from a lousy sailor -- we just seem to get to a few places somehow

first we have a set hard and fast rule - no alcohol while underway - most would not drink and drive a car and think about it - in a car you are surrounded by a few thousand pounds of steel and you do not have to go outside while the car is underway to fix something - it is simple - no alcohol but once the hook is down we always enjoy a salute to another safe voyage and great anchorage

second in terms of a weather window - i will disagree with john a bit but not much -- we look at both the short term forecasts and get an idea for the next day or two but we also look at the long range forecast and in particular the fronts and some of the timing or projected timining - while only a guess it does give us an idea and using some acquired knowledge we try to interpert them as to the probability of them coming down on us and then make our decisions - we did that when we crossed last year and while the models showed the fronts a bit farther north than where we would be sailing i did not like what we saw and thought they might come farther south and if they did it would not be a good day and in the end they did go south and were glad we waited - but it is a bit of a guessing game and you have to be prepared

as for fuel -- we carry 86 gals in tanks and 29 in cans in the cockpit lockers as nothing goes on deck - the deck is clean -- last year we used about 20 gallons and most of that was within a day or so out of horta -

for water we have a watermaker and keep our forward tank, 50 gals, 1/2 to 2/3 full and use it as our emergency supply - our main tank is also 50 gal and we make water and it goes into that tank -- we carry no jugs of water

Now the Azores -- we can not say enough about the azores and the people and the culture -- we just wish we could have spent more time -- it is simply an incredible place and not to be missed -- our problem was the schengren agreement and the need to move on or we would have spent more time and visited more islands -- we liked it so much the admiral wanted to move there

i am out of this thread now as i have had my say - and john is much better writer and sailor than i will ever be and says it better

[BandB]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

If a non-alcohol boat is looking for crew, it may be best to select all non-drinkers. Probably same for smoking.

Absolutely true. Our boats like our home are 100% non smoking. As to drinking, when on duty in any form, they are non drinking. At the end of the day, when docked or anchored moderate drinking is ok. Personally we drink about twice a month. Last time was with a 7 course meal with friends in New Orleans on March 8. Next time will probably be in Key West next weekend. But on an Atlantic crossing there would be no drinking.

Now you're very right in compatibility of all on board. We don't say our choices in these things are right for others. But they are the rules of our boat. Similarly if we were owners who liked to drink each evening, it would be important that any crew have no issue with that. In fact, our crew is made aware up front that they may be exposed to nudity and we make sure that isn't a problem for them.

[atoll]

thanks chuckr,for taking the time to post .

[Orchidius]

Thanks for your comment Atoll, but perhaps I should have been a little more clear about what I meant bij "crossing". I'm starting my crossing the the Caribbean in the Cape Verdes. The stop in the Azores will be for on the way back.

My reason for commenting here even though its a thread centered around the Azores was because it's a slightly altered "milk run" route that would take most sailors through the Azores before making the big leap. Again, Im thankful for any case-specific input I might get, but I was expecting a more generalistic approach ^^.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by Orchidius

Thanks for your comment Atoll, but perhaps I should have been a little more clear about what I meant bij "crossing". I'm starting my crossing the the Caribbean in the Cape Verdes. The stop in the Azores will be for on the way back.

My reason for commenting here even though its a thread centered around the Azores was because it's a slightly altered "milk run" route that would take most sailors through the Azores before making the big leap. Again, Im thankful for any case-specific input I might get, but I was expecting a more generalistic approach ^^.

ok that makes things a lot clearer!
i guess english is not your first language,so excuse us if we did not get it first time

there is a very good reason why you would not want to LEAVE from the azores to cross the atlantic to the caribean,as the GOOD season(may-september) for the azores coincides with the atlantic hurricane season from JUNE to NOVEMBER.

here is a picture of the grib files from passage weather last december,taken at about the same time as yachts started leaving the canary islands for the caribean.......a picture is worth a 1000 words!