Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-03-2014, 21:22   #16
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,312
Images: 75
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

another useful tool to have around the islands,and continental europe is NAVTEX

from franks excellent site,all you need to know in the link below

To quote the UK Coastguard brochure, NAVTEX is the prime method of disseminating full MSI (Marine Safety Information) including weather forecasts and warnings. As a component of the GMDSS. NAVTEX is intended to be used "from the fairway buoy to about 250 Nautical miles offshore". The main characteristics of NAVTEX for this purpose are that stations broadcast

1.in English,
2.in 10 minute slots, in succession within a METAREA, in alphabetical order of the station indicator letters.
3.using a common frequency of 518 kHz..
IMO requires each NAVTEX station

1.to have a GUARANTEED range of 250 NM - however, many achieve 400 NM - with transmission power of 1 kW by day and 300 W by night.
2.to provide forecasts covering that 250 nautical mile radius.
Reception is intended to be automatic and the text readable in paper or soft copy, on-screen form. At sea, this is one of the main methods of receiving weather forecasts



Why We Need NAVTEX / Franks-Weather | The Weather Window
__________________

__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2014, 21:23   #17
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Me - Michigan / Boat - Tenerife
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 2,641
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

My biggest mistake during our crossing from St. Maarten to the Azores was developing what I called rhumb line fever. We became so fixated with making the passage that when a 72 hour gale hit us we fought it for two days before running south. We should have turned southeast and run the first day.

The second mistake is one of personal preference. We where carrying enough diesel to motor 1600 of the 2400+ miles. If I had to do it again, I'd set a direct route instead of heading north towards Bermuda for 5 days then setting east. In the end it gained us nothing. Those who love to sail all the time and have the time to do so usually take the northern route.

My third mistake, I loved the Islands and wish I had built more time into my crossing in order to spend it there. It's like a cross between Hawaii and Ireland. Nice pleasant people. These guys are used to boats being lost at sea or showing up totally broken. Who hasn't been there where some boat is getting major work done from a storm? Must have been 20 when I was there.

One last thing, I also would have set off with less fresh water in my tanks. We had maybe 50 liters of bottled water and lots of soda and juice. And with a water maker, we didn't need 300 gallons of fresh water in the tank. The boat was too heavy when we left with all the extra diesel, water, and provisions.

In any case, to the question of how safe the Azores are, probably more so every year. Technology and experience has to be helping them with rescues. I don't think they have much in the way of crime. Now if your asking how safe it is to sail to them? As dangerous as ever.
__________________

__________________
Not all who wander are lost

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/palarran/
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2014, 21:37   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,312
Images: 75
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

@pallaran,good point about spending more time there,i will see if i can dig up some info on all the new marinas that have been built recently,this has vastly improved the accesability to visit the islands other than faial.

or if somebody has some good links that they can post
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2014, 21:39   #19
DoÖ or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

Here is my idea about the crew on a longish passage:

4 crew members of which 2 experienced, one of which is the captain.

The captain does not take any regular watches but does all navigation, weather tracking, organizing etc. while being stand-by to assist 24x7.

The 3 other crew members take 8 hour watches with the one who does the daylight watch also cooking the meals that day (everyone keeps an eye out during the day so it's the easiest watch). This also allows rotation, which is not possible with 2 persons.

I write this because with boatie's delivery trip so much in focus, people might think it's normal to do these passages shorthanded: you can when you sailed so many years that you don't remember anymore when you started and even then exhaustion is always close behind you.

__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2014, 22:03   #20
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,718
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

Jedi, and the group:

We have always sailed doublehanded, and I disagree that exhaustion is always close behind one. One is always careful to avoid fatigue, but on any passage of over 3 days, our bodies have acclimatized to our watch schedules. Some might find them arduous, and certainly taking on crew can make for easier watch schedules, but our loose 6 hrs. on, 6 off, has worked well for us, and we are told it works well for others. Than one evening long sleep of 5-1/2 hrs., plus a nap later on during our offwatch provides plenty of rest for most conditions. Yes, we have become tired when there has been day after day of gales, and as soon as the motion improved, we'd catch up again on our off watch. I think it is misleading to people new to cruising to encourage them to believe that crew are necessary for ocean passages. For some people crew might be desirable, but other people might not want the responsibility or fuss of crew. YMMV.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2014, 22:17   #21
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,312
Images: 75
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Jedi, and the group:

We have always sailed doublehanded, and I disagree that exhaustion is always close behind one. One is always careful to avoid fatigue, but on any passage of over 3 days, our bodies have acclimatized to our watch schedules. Some might find them arduous, and certainly taking on crew can make for easier watch schedules, but our loose 6 hrs. on, 6 off, has worked well for us, and we are told it works well for others. Than one evening long sleep of 5-1/2 hrs., plus a nap later on during our offwatch provides plenty of rest for most conditions. Yes, we have become tired when there has been day after day of gales, and as soon as the motion improved, we'd catch up again on our off watch. I think it is misleading to people new to cruising to encourage them to believe that crew are necessary for ocean passages. For some people crew might be desirable, but other people might not want the responsibility or fuss of crew. YMMV.

Ann
i agree a boat well set up,with a powerful auto pilot ,spares and the power to run it,coupled with a windvane provides fairly adequete redundancy for a single or double handed crew.......untill you have to hand steer24/7.
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2014, 22:32   #22
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,718
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

We never had to hand steer longer than 3 days once, and we managed. The other time, Jim rigged sheet to tiller steering that would steer the boat with tweaking about every 10 min. That autopilot failure happened on the 3rd day out of Kauai on the way back to San Francisco, late in the season with gales. Had we been wise enough then, we would have given up our northing, dropped south to where a more experienced sailor friend and his boat were and had a much less demanding sail...but like rhumb line fever, we were loath to give up that northing. Twenty-twenty hindsight is wonderful, eh?

We have redundancy with our A/Ps, too: two of them and one spare. It is one aspect of cruising that is much better than in the Hiscocks' day.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2014, 22:38   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,437
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

Anne, I follow your threads and almost always agree with you, but on this one, about exhaustion, I must disagree. I believe you have done almost all of your long passages with a wind vane steering (correct me if I am wrong) which you can depend upon on a passage. Most deliveries have an electron dependent auto pilot. Those who depend on electrons will sooner or later get bit, and have to steer 24/7 and the exhaustion sets in. My wife and I did our passages with just the 2 of us and the third hand(windvane), but when I started doing deliveries (without windvanes) I always took a third hand, or sometimes a fourth (if free) so the boat was still safe if the electrical system packed up. Fatigue is one of the most dangerous things there is at sea. Just my opinion. ______Grant.
__________________
gjordan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2014, 22:44   #24
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,312
Images: 75
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
We never had to hand steer longer than 3 days once, and we managed. The other time, Jim rigged sheet to tiller steering that would steer the boat with tweaking about every 10 min. That autopilot failure happened on the 3rd day out of Kauai on the way back to San Francisco, late in the season with gales. Had we been wise enough then, we would have given up our northing, dropped south to where a more experienced sailor friend and his boat were and had a much less demanding sail...but like rhumb line fever, we were loath to give up that northing. Twenty-twenty hindsight is wonderful, eh?

We have redundancy with our A/Ps, too: two of them and one spare. It is one aspect of cruising that is much better than in the Hiscocks' day.

Ann
very true ann,thanks for posting that,once bitten twice shy!

.handsteering can be true misery,shorthanded in the north atlantic,sheet to tiller down wind can also be very hard to achieve with big following seas
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2014, 23:04   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Western Med
Boat: 52' Crealock Farrington staysail schooner
Posts: 81
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

Me thinks that some come foolishly to the sea and some just have bad luck. That is certainly some of the magic. Our last crossing was wonderful. We talked to Herb every day till we arrived in the Azores. The Trades make the long passage amazing. A point of sail that lasts for days and days, Wow! Also some people who join the ARC and think they can get a spare or stop for a cheeseburger with the group are often the ones who go missing or get torn up. Its a long trip and you need to depend on your crew and your preparedness. having 30 tons,an integrated keel, and many sails also helps. All those retired racing boats with light rig can be trouble.Horta is a great place and there are some good repair people there as well and its the most casual Euro check in anywhere
__________________
barnaclejim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2014, 23:33   #26
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,718
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
Anne, I follow your threads and almost always agree with you, but on this one, about exhaustion, I must disagree. I believe you have done almost all of your long passages with a wind vane steering (correct me if I am wrong) which you can depend upon on a passage. Most deliveries have an electron dependent auto pilot. Those who depend on electrons will sooner or later get bit, and have to steer 24/7 and the exhaustion sets in. My wife and I did our passages with just the 2 of us and the third hand(windvane), but when I started doing deliveries (without windvanes) I always took a third hand, or sometimes a fourth (if free) so the boat was still safe if the electrical system packed up. Fatigue is one of the most dangerous things there is at sea. Just my opinion. ______Grant.
Firstly, thank you for the kind words. Perhaps I did not write as clearly as I meant.

Starting at the end and working up to the beginning, first, I agree that fatigue is potentially very dangerous. Just how close exhaustion is behind varies a lot, though, with where you're sailing, and violent motion and cold interact with fatigue. In my admittedly limited experience, the two of us did manage three full days hand steering when both windvane and autopilot were non-functional---but this was between the Tuamotus and Papeete, warm waters, pleasant sailing conditions.

Secondly, you are correct, for the first 18 yrs., we had a home built auxiliary rudder windvane. On this boat, which we've had since 2003, we have three electronic autopilots.

If we were going to attempt a long passage, over two weeks length, I think we'd have to spring for a windvane again. Certainly if one were crossing the North Atlantic in mid winter. But one cannot reasonably expect a delivery skipper to fit one to the boats he/she delivers, so, yes, I agree delivering boats for people is a job where you might be willing to take crew with all their risks, and could reasonably think of crew as a safety factor.

But my point was that I do not think that we should tell would-be cruisers that taking extra crew is the only safe thing to do. While it's true that one could fry an alternator at any time, we carry a spare. We keep up our maintenance. We check the rig before we leave. I really do think that with skills, planning and repairs, a couple can still safely circumnavigate without crew, as many others have done before them. Finally, I offer our watch schedule as a hedge against fatigue, because the long sleep at night really makes a huge difference for shorthanded cruisers who have difficulty sleeping in the day time.

It's okay if you don't agree with me. You're working in a different environment.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2014, 23:55   #27
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 234
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

Some good posts here. I agree with Jedi's configuration that 4 is ideal crew size, and that it is possible with 2 experienced folks in a boat they know well but needs some care.

I have been to Horta many times - but for conferences and meetings, not by boat. Lots of hours in Peter's Sport Cafe, and interesting conversations with other patrons! I've briefly visited a couple of the other islands and also had a little time in Ponta Delgada. The latter included a 24 hour layover on one visit as the airports were closed due to a hurricane. My hotel lost part of its roof, but no-one was injured. It has a much larger port than Horta although more industrial in nature, and that island has more of the total population and a lot of 'holiday-home' condos on the northern side. Nonetheless, I regard all of the Islands as worth lingering on, and the people are great. The Azores are an oasis, not risky at all. Getting there might be a challenge.....
__________________
Morrissey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2014, 00:08   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,969
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

Sometimes sleep deprivation is better than crew, LOL. Our crossings have been mostly just the two of us, every time we have had crew my wife can't get along with them and it turns into a crap passage. We had to hand steer for 2 weeks on the trip from Hawaii to BC Canada and I have had wind vanes on every boat since but our latest one is autopilots only.
With crew you need more water and more food.
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2014, 00:45   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 3,541
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

No one mentioned weather's sources? Given the choice of wfax or gribs I would definitely go for wfax to watch the tracks of the lows and try to guess the best parallel to go for, couple of degrees north of South can make a very big difference. A cheap ssb reciever with a laptop./tablet can provide a huge amount of vital info.
Possibly even more important now that herb isn't there to hold people's hands anymore.

Sent from my SGP312 using Tapatalk
__________________
conachair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2014, 02:12   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,969
Re: azores 2014 how safe is it?

Yes a few degrees one way or another can certainly make a difference in weather BUT the forecasts offshore are often less than perfect plus a few degrees 2-3 is close to 200 miles so at typical sail boat speeds you best be able to deal with whats coming and clouds and a barometer will certainly give you a good heads up.

Yes for sure a weather fax is way better than grib files, one is computer generated and the other has had a professional give his/her impute.
__________________

__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Azores

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crew Available: Will work hard as crew to get catamaran experience Jan 2014 - March 2014 ArtifexStonemas Crew Archives 0 12-08-2013 17:50
Anyone Sailed to the Azores ? jwidahonurse Atlantic & the Caribbean 9 10-07-2009 09:00
Tw Crew Wanted For Trans-Atlantic Passage, Caribbean To Azores, May/June, 42' Catama Octopus Crew Archives 3 08-05-2008 12:53
Room for One Crew Member - Antigua to Azores in May '08 BrendanChandler Crew Archives 25 02-05-2008 18:11
Azores bluewaterP72 Atlantic & the Caribbean 1 10-02-2007 08:27



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:14.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.