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Old 18-04-2014, 15:43   #91
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Originally Posted by 4music3 View Post

...

You mention hove to -- is that done like a mono or has it some other meaning with the same result - I'm a big fan of being hove to in a mono because I have mostly small boat experience.
In general yes, but depends on the boat. Most typical cruising cats much like a mono. More performance oriented cats/tris may do better under main alone.

There's a whole thread on this here somewhere already.
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Old 18-04-2014, 18:28   #92
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Finally the capsize comment comes up! I guess we can close the thread now. Cats capsize so monos are better.
Cat owners' version of Godwin's Law eh?
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Old 18-04-2014, 19:56   #93
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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We were knocked down by a mini tornado off the coast of africa, we let the sheets go and bounced back up, later we found out a french flagged pajot 43 belize or bahia was lost with 4 crew killed, the cat later washed up in morocco, the incident took place on the same day, nearly the same location.
5kn to 65+ kn of wind almost instantly and out of nowhere.

Statistics may say one thing, but statistics may be biased by a huge number of cats in charter fleets that go nowhere far.

A cat flipped at anchor in greece a couple of years back, by some freak squall.

Now on the opposite hand most cats are supposedly unsinkable, and many monos have sank enroute, 2 rudders /2 engines are handy, ive suffered 900nm with no engine and the loss of a rudder 300nm from the azores, both would have been no issue in a cat with 2 of each.

Though i would probably be dead like the french cat crew if id have set sail on the route i did in a cat.

I love cats at anchor, the lack or roll would have saved many a tortuous sleepless night,where you would have been more comfortable under passage than at anchor.

Everything is a personal choice, but I do believe the safety aspects of a cat are overstated especially if short handed or no constant watch. I would not feel safe doing an ocean passage in a cat without an experienced crew with a constant watch.

I did consider a cat for future travels, but my wife would not step aboard, strangely enough its usually the wives who love them.

As for statistics, remember the vast majority of claims come from boats sinking /catching fire at the dock, not under way, a cat wont sink at the dock!!
Well taken, your comment about constant watch with a cat. A mono singlehanded can usually look after itself, when set up properly, while the solo sailor goes below for a bit, or takes a short snooze in the cockpit. A good crew and a continuous watch at the helm make a cat a bit less scary, I think. And also, a prudent cat skipper might shorten sail on dark nights or in dodgy weather. I imagine a survivor of a cat flipping would probably tell you that it happened rather suddenly. Just my guess. As for me, I like sailing alone, and I put a lot of trust in the old Cal to stay right side more or less up.

"if she starts to go over, why, I'll just throw off the sheets..." Lol! I like knowing that if I am a little slow, I will still probably be okay. If I am on the throne or stirring the swill or whatever, it might be quite some few seconds before I can get to it.

Of course this sort of situation comes infrequently.

But the payoff could be deadly.
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Old 19-04-2014, 01:10   #94
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

And yet amazingly the high powered trimarans seem to keep setting new singlehanded RTW records without constantly flipping. (Which can't be said for the mono's)

Cruising, we simply reduce sail at night.
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Old 19-04-2014, 01:44   #95
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
And yet amazingly the high powered trimarans seem to keep setting new singlehanded RTW records without constantly flipping. (Which can't be said for the mono's)

Cruising, we simply reduce sail at night.
As we all do!

A bit of thread drift -- but why not set up cats to blow the sheets automatically beyond a certain degree of heel? It would be reasonably simple, I would think, to engineer. Most heading sensors will now give heel angle data. And there are now reversible winches.
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Old 19-04-2014, 02:44   #96
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

This is turning into a RH thread. Modern cruising cats are cool boats, expensive for sure but lots of room and can be relatively quick if light and average if heavy. Mono's are a little less money and a greater choice and most sailors sail monos for those reasons and the same applies as there are faster ones and slower ones. Its a very individual decision as to what works for you or your better half. This debate is like religion, yours is right and the other guys is wrong....waste of time.
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Old 19-04-2014, 08:18   #97
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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This is turning into a RH thread. Modern cruising cats are cool boats, expensive for sure but lots of room and can be relatively quick if light and average if heavy. Mono's are a little less money and a greater choice and most sailors sail monos for those reasons and the same applies as there are faster ones and slower ones. Its a very individual decision as to what works for you or your better half. This debate is like religion, yours is right and the other guys is wrong....waste of time.
TBH, MOST of what we post about on this forum is a waste of time. But still entertaining. When I am logged on, and not asking an important question, you can bet that I have time to waste. If I am busy, I simply don't read the thread. And nobody else has to read it or participate either, who doesn't want to.
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Old 19-04-2014, 08:36   #98
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Well taken, your comment about constant watch with a cat. A mono singlehanded can usually look after itself, when set up properly, while the solo sailor goes below for a bit, or takes a short snooze in the cockpit. A good crew and a continuous watch at the helm make a cat a bit less scary, I think. And also, a prudent cat skipper might shorten sail on dark nights or in dodgy weather. I imagine a survivor of a cat flipping would probably tell you that it happened rather suddenly. Just my guess. As for me, I like sailing alone, and I put a lot of trust in the old Cal to stay right side more or less up.
....
True, multis should be more closely tended. Certainly so in unstable conditions.

I usually shorten sail at night, not a bad idea on a mono either, because squalls are more likely at night. Did not do that recently on a light air run along Atlanitc coast of Panama....got reminded I should have when we got just W of Portobelo, early next AM, and the trades kicked in with a vengance at about 25 kts!

Even on a mono big gusts could still result in a knock down. Potentially breaking gear and body parts. I have also seen a small mono sink like a rock (seconds) during a race, when it got knocked down, unsecured lazerette hatch flipped open, cockpit flooded and then down flooded thru the now open very large hatch. Downflooding is the most common way that tallships have been lost in modern times (See book "Tallship Down" ). Same concept applies to mid-sized cruising monos too....many of which are commonly not that well secured for going to sea.

Which stikes the most fear in your heart: catastropic (meaning fast) sinking or capsize (and probably float)? Maybe that's one more data point for deciding cat or mono. Statistically, as shown by a review of NTSB data (posted here on another thread), the odds are about the same.

Interesting correlary, just thinking that most (all I can think of in fact) stories I've read about extended survival at sea in a liferaft occurred after monos sunk (Not trying to start a fight here, just an observation). Most cat capasizes I know of the boat has flipped, floated, crew spent some uncomfortable time aboard and got plucked off. Of course, cats can and do burn to the waterline, leaving you in effectively the same situation as the sunk mono...that's why I choose to carry a liferaft on a cat.
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Old 19-04-2014, 09:44   #99
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
...stories I've read about extended survival at sea in a liferaft occurred after monos sunk...
Most cat capasizes I know of the boat has flipped, floated, crew spent some uncomfortable time aboard and got plucked off...
Funny how, in stories about extended survival at sea, you don't read about too many multi-hull crews who were simply picked off their boat.
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Old 19-04-2014, 10:27   #100
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Funny how, in stories about extended survival at sea, you don't read about too many multi-hull crews who were simply picked off their boat.
Well, "plucked" may be trivializing it a bit, but most cases I've read or know about the crews were rescued from their overturned multis. Do you know of crusing multi capsizes where that was not the case?
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Old 19-04-2014, 10:38   #101
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

How strong of winds would cause a capsizing? Or is it more about how much sail you have out that causes capsizing?
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Old 19-04-2014, 12:15   #102
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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How strong of winds would cause a capsizing? Or is it more about how much sail you have out that causes capsizing?
Depends upon the boat. For example, there was a Chris White Atlantic 55(?) that capsized a few years ago. Had first reef in and got caught in a big gust (IIRC over 70 kts TWS). Chris White ran the numbers and came up with 64 kts for capsize with 1st reef . Think he posted his response on his web site.

Forget the boat name, but owner posted a painfully honest account of the event online. Chris' designs are pretty agressive so require a bit more prudent seamanship in unstable/heavy conditions than was being exercised. Reading the owner's account was a bit like watching a bad horror movie....you want to shout "no, don't do that!"
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Old 19-04-2014, 12:40   #103
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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"no, don't do that!"
I think I'll be hearing a lot of that from my instructor the first several times I get on the water. I take it inexperience is a big factor in capsizing then with either a multi or mono. I was reading on another thread, if I was reading it correctly that putting 2 or 3 reefs in before the wind howls keeps you out of a lot of trouble. Not sure if he was talking about a multi or a mono but I imagine wind is wind so reefing 2 or 3 times would apply to both. Of course, I could be wrong about that because my experience right now is hovering around zero.
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Old 19-04-2014, 12:41   #104
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

Well, I've had both, I don't hate either. In my personal experience, the mono tolerates gross overloading better than the cat did. Both have the same LWL and the mono we have now doesn't seem to lose as much performance as the previous, equally overloaded cat.

I changed only because of a perceived lack of feel on the cat and that it's fast motion was less pleasant than that of a deep ballasted keelboat. The dramas of finding places to haul out didn't help either.

That being said, if I were to be looking to change boats next week, I would look at cats and monos equally without prejudice.

I never did get the cat vs mono debate, perhaps it's just a manifestation of latent tribalism amongst those less evolved (in the Darwinian sense).
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Old 19-04-2014, 12:45   #105
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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......

I never did get the cat vs mono debate, perhaps it's just a manifestation of latent tribalism amongst those less evolved (in the Darwinian sense).
Me neither. I think much of it is just human nature...a tendency to view anyone/thing in a different sub-group from "yours" negatively.
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