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Old 16-04-2014, 19:24   #46
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
Oh, and our tri loves to go to weather.
We beat the pants off that cat in the pic when we had a "race to the anchorage".
Looking at the picture I'm not surprised. The bridge deck on that cat has a mountain of windage and yours is beamier to take a killer sail area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
..There are cat's that sail to windward better than any mono ever made. The AC 72's were making VMG's of around 18 knots...
Maybe put an appropriate bridge deck structure on an AC72 and see how it sails..
Local boat, the "General Lee" a 36' racing mono built to no racing rules, sleeps 6 crew, cruises at 24 knots, thrashed the open 40's and 50's in last years Fremantle to Bali Yacht race. Only the 90'+ super maxi (formerly Nicorette) beat it.

There are killer monos out there, I like the Mac 65's (but I like lots of boats..) 10 knots to windward, under $200k, is good enough for me.
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Old 16-04-2014, 19:24   #47
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

That's like cars vs. trucks IMO. They each have their strengths & flaws, depends on your priorities.
I think folks who argue one over the other are really invested in justifying their own decision. I mean, if somone could be convinced by one post on the internet, any boat will kill them.

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Old 16-04-2014, 19:31   #48
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Ok so what actually happens on a cat if a surprise wind is way to strong?

Will the cat turn up/ rigging brake/ sheets auto release/ what?

We all know on a mono when it leans over it spills wind -- how will the cat take care of this-- no really I'm just asking because I don't get it?
Cats don't tend to round up like monos do and they don't heel signficantly under "normal" circumstances. Also the "heeling moment" (force required to induce heel) is much greater on a cat. So, in "significant" gust, lets say 15 knots over TWS of 15 knots (30 kts total TWS), the cat will likely just heel a little (a few degrees), the rigging will load up LOT more (which it should be engineered for) and the boat will sail on (30 kts is not going to capasize any modern crusing cat).

However, when sailing a cat in gusty conditions it is prudent to set up your sail plan for the gusts, not sustained winds as you might on a mono, and never have the mainsheet far from your hand. Most modern cats have large mainsail driven sail plans so the mainsheet is your saftey valve (much like rounding up or heeling in a mono). In a REALLY BIG gust, say 30 knots over TWS, blow that mainsheet fast! Heave to, clean your pants, reef deeper, and either get underway again or stay hove to and wait for this crap to roll over you.

I've sailed cats in sudden gusts up to 45 knots over TWS (only about about 5 knots TWS...very unstable conditions), no problem, if you are prepared. And in a couple of gusts+TWS much higher, but I was way too busy to look at the wind instrument!
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Old 16-04-2014, 21:04   #49
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

Looks to me like the catamaran is slaughtering the monohulls for sailing, speed, beaching, roomyness, etc. Sure they might cost more to leave in a marina, more for bottom paint and a few other things, but on the whole I do believe the catamaran has more of the advantages that I want than a monohull does.

But, I'm going to try them both out to see which feels right in my hands because holy crap those catamarans are pricey. Not too sure if I can find a decent one with a $50K budget, but I have at least 6 months ahead of me before I have enough hands on experience to buy my own cat or monohull.

My thanks to everyone for their opinions. They are much appreciated.
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Old 16-04-2014, 21:11   #50
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Cats don't tend to round up like monos do and they don't heel signficantly under "normal" circumstances. Also the "heeling moment" (force required to induce heel) is much greater on a cat. So, in "significant" gust, lets say 15 knots over TWS of 15 knots (30 kts total TWS), the cat will likely just heel a little (a few degrees), the rigging will load up LOT more (which it should be engineered for) and the boat will sail on (30 kts is not going to capasize any modern crusing cat).

However, when sailing a cat in gusty conditions it is prudent to set up your sail plan for the gusts, not sustained winds as you might on a mono, and never have the mainsheet far from your hand. Most modern cats have large mainsail driven sail plans so the mainsheet is your saftey valve (much like rounding up or heeling in a mono). In a REALLY BIG gust, say 30 knots over TWS, blow that mainsheet fast! Heave to, clean your pants, reef deeper, and either get underway again or stay hove to and wait for this crap to roll over you.

I've sailed cats in sudden gusts up to 45 knots over TWS (only about about 5 knots TWS...very unstable conditions), no problem, if you are prepared. And in a couple of gusts+TWS much higher, but I was way too busy to look at the wind instrument!
Thanks for answering the question!

One more and then I'll drop off this really is a stressful subject.

You mention hove to -- is that done like a mono or has it some other meaning with the same result - I'm a big fan of being hove to in a mono because I have mostly small boat experience.
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Old 16-04-2014, 22:25   #51
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Thanks for answering the question!

One more and then I'll drop off this really is a stressful subject.

You mention hove to -- is that done like a mono or has it some other meaning with the same result - I'm a big fan of being hove to in a mono because I have mostly small boat experience.

I think belizesailor meant heave to.
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Old 16-04-2014, 22:58   #52
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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I think belizesailor meant heave to.
Ya one is getting there and one is being there but it's all the same to me unless I'm taking some kind of test.
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Old 16-04-2014, 22:59   #53
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Looks to me like the catamaran is slaughtering the monohulls for sailing, speed, beaching, roomyness, etc. Sure they might cost more to leave in a marina, more for bottom paint and a few other things, but on the whole I do believe the catamaran has more of the advantages that I want than a monohull does.
To compare like with like, for example, a 40' cat should be compared with a 65' mono, then there would be no "slaughter" involved.. and the mono could still be cheaper.
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Old 16-04-2014, 23:53   #54
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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To compare like with like, for example, a 40' cat should be compared with a 65' mono, then there would be no "slaughter" involved.. and the mono could still be cheaper.
I spent what I had on my mono now I need to save up to actually get it in the water.

That 7 thousand really hurt.

I suppose I could sell stuff and go big but not yet!
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Old 17-04-2014, 02:18   #55
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pirate Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

There's beachable mono's out there.. just gotta look..
In fact any mono will stand up when the tide goes out.. we do it all the time here in Europe..
As to heavy winds.. the Lagoon 440 I just delivered hove to pretty well in 40kts.. until the crap reef point gave way.. looks very pretty and high tech but give me the old stainless ring in the leech any day.. that IS strong..
Most here sail their cat's in stable/predictable conditions for relatively short distances.. however sailing 1000's of miles a leg I do find mono's less wearing on the body.. smoother movement as opposed to the cat's sharp fast jerky response to the sea's..
Just figure the area's you want to cruise.. take the wife's opinion seriously if that's important to you... and buy accordingly..
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Old 17-04-2014, 02:42   #56
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

I love the livability of cats, IF it is over about 32-34ft.
On smaller cats, it is tough to find one that is livable and sails well too.
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Old 17-04-2014, 02:55   #57
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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I think belizesailor meant heave to.
No, he was correct.

"Heave to, clean your pants, reef deeper, and either get underway again or stay hove to "
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Old 17-04-2014, 03:02   #58
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

Having owned, cruised and lived aboard both, my opinion/impressions:

Cat pro's:

Space. Cockpit space kills mono's, even ones 20 feet longer. The living and sleeping areas are better laid out for space and privacy. Cats are simply much better to live on.

Comfort at anchor. So called "rolly" anchorages are no problem. We also lie to the wind to a greater degree, which improves ventilation. We can also access much shallower anchorages which are often better sheltered. And dry out comfortably if we want to.

I actually prefer the cat's motion. To me it's more like travelling on a bus or a train - there's a short quick motion, but I prefer that to the deep rolling or heeling. Sailing downwind on a mono can be sheer hell, on a cat it's heaven. It's true, your drinks don't spill, and we rarely put stuff away.

Our passage speeds are faster. Compared to similar length (or a bit bigger)performance oriented cruising mono's we seem to make our passages around 20% faster. Compared to our old steel mono we're light years ahead.

I feel our cat is actually cheaper to run. Because we sail better, we motor much less. We can touch up antifoul on a quiet bit of sand somewhere. And comfort at anchor means we stay out of marinas.

I also believe cat's are safer. Most deaths at sea are a result of falling overboard, and a cat's wider flatter decks are simply easier to move around and to stay aboard. I recently read a magazine article that said 80% of boating deaths in the USA were due to MOB's, and in that year there were no deaths caused by falling overboard from cat's.

Con's:

Marina berths are more expensive.

It's a hell of a lot of boat to polish.

Sails have to be better constructed, so cost more.

In rough weather the ride can be noisy.
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Old 17-04-2014, 04:21   #59
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

The only catamarans I've sailed are 2 polycons and a CSK. But I've done quite a bit more sailing on a Dick Newick 38' trimaran, at times reaching speeds over 15 knots. Pretty exciting riding the windward ama and feeling like you're on a magic carpet, with virtually no felt motion from the waves. Though all I've tried steered like barges, in close quarters.

There's never been a deep connection, for me, with multi's, like I've developed with some monohulls, some sense of trust and attachment borne of many decades of tradition and New England values. Above all I distrust the ultimate seaworthiness of multi-hulls. And fear the consequences of their inability to right themselves. So I stick with a monohull. But still have a liferaft.
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Old 17-04-2014, 05:00   #60
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Getting from Point A to point B in comfort, speed, and engine redundancy the Cat wins. Pleasure of sailing and aesthetics the mono wins.
.
Pleasure of sailing -- a trimaran wins, hands down! If you sail a tri you'll be ruined for life. It will become your yardstick and nothing else will measure up. First of all, it has all the feel of a mono, with limited heel you know how hard your pressed, but neutral helm. Second, speed and acceleration can't be beat except by all-out racing cats (but cats lose on feel, and most cruising cats are condomarans that are overloaded and sail like dogs). Third, is comfort -- limited heel of 5-10 degrees means you're less likely to slip & fall, you won't have to brace yourself constantly and you can set your drinks down under all but the most severe wave conditions. Pointing? Most tris have deep enough dagger boards or centerboards along with narrow sheeting angles so they can point like monos.
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