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Old 22-05-2014, 06:25   #241
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Originally Posted by BWB75 View Post
The book said we didn't need to reef until the wind hit 20 or 25. I was out-voted.
Yes well the book says - I mean good god, whats wrong with some seamanship.
Quote:
We could not reef because the instructor said it was too dangerous to go forward of the cabin. This boat required people at the mast in order to reef. (I will never go out in a boat like that again, I don't care if it's a gold plated Hinckley. If it cannot reef from the cockpit it is unfit for open water IMO.)
Like others have said, plenty of boats can be reefed at the cockpit, mine included.

Quote:
The screws in the plastic frame gave out against the waves and the window popped open.
Screws!! Plastic Frame!!
Quote:
Bad place for a window, I thought.
Caertainly one as badly built as that
Quote:
So was the boat, as some of the slugs holding the sail to the mast started to pop out.
Slugs!!
Quote:
It was at this point we noticed that the bilge pump didn't work. The manual backup was inadequate.
I detect a pattern here, poorly built and maintained boat skippered by a man that reads the book, you were lucky to get away with your life!
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Old 22-05-2014, 06:26   #242
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

Weavis, the new me truly loves the hugs - let's face it, its all about fellowship. And Boatie, I am happy since I've seen the light!
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Old 22-05-2014, 07:53   #243
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

Thisse threade hase beene funn to reade! Thack you for starteng it.
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Old 22-05-2014, 12:18   #244
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Originally Posted by BWB75 View Post
SNIP

I said reef. The book said we didn't need to reef until the wind hit 20 or 25. I was out-voted.

SNIP
In other threads I have been bashed for lacking a sense of humor.

So I have to ask does this strike anyone else as funny.

One of the best reason I know for taking fire arms on a boat is to deal with folks who suggest taking a vote.
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Old 22-05-2014, 12:25   #245
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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The Gemini, you have to go on deck to raise or lower the main, The wind gets to 20 knots

or so, I turn into the wind and drop the main, It all takes about ten minutes and I am back

safely in the cockpit,

There is no way I would wait till the wind was higher to drop my main, The Boat just gets

too fast and unsafe for me to handle on my own,

Its fun going fast, But not in very bad conditions,
Mr B.
Can that line not be transfered to the helm or does it HAVE to be at the mast to raise the sail?
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Old 22-05-2014, 13:38   #246
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

BWB75 was not in charge so not trying to say anything negative toward you!

In fact I had a bad attempt on the same stretch of water in similar conditions on a 30 foot mono.

Ended up turning around because my 2nd sail crew was scared?

To your instructor I say get a new job and I don't care where you reef slow the thing down and reduce sail or whatever!

I know you know all this it's just a rhetorical comment (is there such a thing?)
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Old 22-05-2014, 15:10   #247
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Mr B.
Can that line not be transfered to the helm or does it HAVE to be at the mast to raise the sail?
It has to be done on deck and at the bottom of the mast, and facing into the wind,
If its not facing into the wind, My Main will not go up or down, It gets stuck, Too much wind pressure on it to move,

I have no intention to change it, Its quite safe,

It isnt a problem, As long as the wind is below 20 knots or so, Above that, I make sure the Main is down, Then I run only the Genoa,

It only takes a very small bit of the Genoa to keep me going between the waves,
It takes a bit of fiddling with it to get the speed right, and keep me on the waves where I want it to be,

I am a Power, Motor Boat man, Sailing is a whole new ball game for me, I am not a Sailor,
and I dont profess to be one, I have never driven a sail boat before,
I dont even know half the terms you use, Motor boats dont have sails, or the Terminology,

A week after I bought my boat, I will try the main out, Took the cover of it for the first time,
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO,

Its got ropes coming out of it every where,
3 through the Boom, A couple up the mast, The PO had left a day and a half after I got there, I was on my own, The main was never uncovered before that,

I assumed there was a Main sail under the cover, Hahahahaha, There was,

Wow, What does this rope do, where does it go to, Hahahahaha,
Crash course in setting up the main sail, I have the Boat Makers book on it, That made it a bit easier, And asking other sailors about it, I figured it all out, At night at the Sundowners Bar,

If it got to the point of not being able to get the main down, and the wind was getting higher, to the point of being dangerous, I would knife the main, Cut the bottom of it, off the boom, But I would be in winds far above 40 knots or so, before I would do that, Thats a desperado move,

A flapping main would be easier to control, than a boat out of control with the Main up,
Its just common sense, Or just the way I think,

A Narcistic Phsycopathic passenger that was seasick for 6 days straight didnt help either, I didnt know it at the time, Sea sickness that could be turned on and off, at will, GRRRHHHH.

She gets on the phone or VHF, Where's the sea sickness gone, ??????????,

I wont have her back, Ever,

I just hope my posts help some one else, You can only go so far by reading, after that its just practice, and avoiding having your deck, 5 miles below your feet, Thats not Funny,
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Old 22-05-2014, 22:34   #248
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

I prescribe more practice and more Sundowners Bar-- and have fun!
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Old 23-05-2014, 00:31   #249
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

I studied this pretty extensively and think I can give an exhaustive (if not exhausting) answer.

First, I am talking about CRUISING, not racing or sport sailing, and I am talking about CRUISING class boats.. Here goes:

There are several major factors that go into the mono vs cat competition:

1) Size
at about 40 feet and up, a cruising catamaran (lagoon style) has huge advantages over an "equivalent" cruising monohull. It has broad, comfortable spaces. It can be sailed from inside or out. It will sail in a wide variety of waters.
A comparable sized monohull has extremely deep keels. It is unlikely to have a top-side cabin, like a catamaran. When it does have one, it is generally unwieldy and bears high windage, just like the catamaran, but usually disfigures the "classic lines" of the sailboat so much that, in terms of looks, you're better off going back to the catamaran.
Below that size, however, the spaces in a catamaran begin to get narrow and short. Headroom starts to vanish. The hulls become more constrictive. A few clever designs notwithstanding, anything under 35' starts to take you into weekender categories.
A monohull, however, remains comfortable and spacious down to much smaller sizes. Even a 32' monohull is arguably equally or more spacious than a 35' catamaran, and is available at a much lower cost and variety.


2) Seagoing capability
A well made, "bluewater" monohull is like a tank on the water. Huge, heavy, and nearly unsinkable. It plows through anything and sheds water like a duck in the heaviest torrents.
A well made bluewater catamaran is a great boat, but it is rare to find a catamaran that is designed for a SERIOUS pounding.
For most of us, though, this is not a factor because this kind of ocean travel exists mainly nearly the north and south poles. It is not common in the green waters of the Caribbean and the Mediterranean where most of these cruising boats are to be found

3) Style
They say there is no accounting for style, but I will ATTEMPT IT ANYWAY. Some traditional sailors love the feel of a monohull boat in the water. They LIKE the fact that they must sail in the weather, whether they want to or not. They like the bucking and rolling, and even enjoy sleeping in the crack of the bed when on a long, heeling crossing.
People who love catamarans, aka "Floating Condos" are more likely to love the feel of a wide, comfortable room that mostly stays flat, and which gives them the easy option of being indoors or outdoors most of the time.
I'll avoid getting into the details of how and why this is, and just say that I've heard many good, valid explanations. Although they don't always make sense to me, I can say that I have had many good, earnest explanations of why X is better than Y, when when it seems (at first) very apparent that Y is much better than X.

There are also a number of "non-factors" that have been frequently rehashed, and I now feel is just a bunch of hogwash.

1) Performance
There are plenty of fat, lazy monohulls that will sail just as flat, boorishly, and off the wind as a catamaran, and the catarman will do it better
Also, though much is made of the monohull's ability to "point into the wind", all indications are that a catarmaran with a centerboard can do nearly as well, and makes it up on the reach where it has the clear advantage over the monohull.

2) Capsizing and Pitch Poling
Mercifully, this argument has nearly vanished from the landscape. In nearly every case I heard someone make this argument, they pointed to stories about racing "catamarans" flipping over again and again. Those boats are actually "hydrofoils", but all they heard was the word "catamaran" and concluded that they must be the most dangerous contraptions on earth.
Cruising catamarans are nearly possible to tip over. The exceptions are a few "hybrid" styles that can be sailed for performance and have extra "speed" features to make that possible. It is not going to happen in a Lagoon unless you get into some very extreme circumstances.

3) Cost
I don't believe that a catamaran is any more expensive than a monohull boat with equivalent comforts and style features, at least not to a degree worth noting. This is becoming more true as time goes on since there are now many manufacturers of new cruising cats and a growing supply of used ones.

4) "Classic Lines"
I've seen beauties and abhorrence on both ends of the pier.

5) Ability to dock (due to width)
It remains true that catamarans, due to the their width, are somewhat limited in the availability of dockage in some places.
This is a diminishing factor, though, as cruising catamarans have become extremely popular around the world, even in the remotest pacific destinations.
In fact, I am still postulating a day when larger monohull sailboats will find dockage more difficult to find as marinas start to favor the low draft of the catamarans. Widening a slip or two is a lot cheaper then dredging and trenching, especially in the shallower regions where the reefs are becoming more and more protected.
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Old 23-05-2014, 01:05   #250
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

ArtM I was with you until your final item #5, think you are way off base on this one. Marina's are difficult to even get zoning for these days and they are very expensive to build. I believe as more Cats are cruising you will see the costs go up even further for Cats.
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Old 27-06-2014, 19:36   #251
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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ArtM I was with you until your final item #5, think you are way off base on this one. Marina's are difficult to even get zoning for these days and they are very expensive to build. I believe as more Cats are cruising you will see the costs go up even further for Cats.
Well, I'm only postulating that, but I think there are good counter arguments:
- Though wider, cats are also shorter and typical able to turn on their center axis. This allows more flexbility in the design of "finger piers" which can be more closely spaced in wide, shallow bays.
- Part of the zoning restrictions relate to depth restrictions and the environmental impacts of dredging and trenching. It may be easier to open up new marinas to lower-draft boats than to deep-draft sailboats, though they take up less width, and also to more environmentally friendly sailboats, particularly if electrics come back around (and I think they will).
- I'm only comparing big boats - a 40'-50' cat to a 50'-60' monohull, for example - not to 30 or 35' monohulls, which I would guess are the easy majority of boats in destination and liveaboard marinas. It will always be true, whether you're preference is length or girth, that you will pay more for a bigger boat than a small one.
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Old 29-06-2014, 20:10   #252
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
The only thing wrong about Multi Hulls is the ones big enough for my wife and I to really cruise on, is we can't afford them ! But we can cruise any mono hull up to 50 ft by ourselves and afford one that size!!
I'm of the same thought... in addition to the base price, you also increased costs for moorage and upkeep.

p/S why is moorage coming up a misspelled?
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Old 29-06-2014, 20:28   #253
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

I can only love one good hull at a time! Two confuses me.....

I never know what to put where?
Am I favouring one hull over the other?
Can I truly perform well enough to satisfy the needs of both hulls?

At night which side do I spoon on?.... and other moral dilemmas that make me a mono..go must sailor...


However... I am more into Love than Hate.... so open to other opinions. )
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Old 29-06-2014, 23:40   #254
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Gahh autopsying the event. Okay. We left in perfect weather. I said reef. The book said we didn't need to reef until the wind hit 20 or 25. I was out-voted. So, no reef and me unhappy. Halfway across the water was 8 or 12 thousand feet deep and nothing but fetch until Grand Canary.

After a time, right around when we lost sight of land, the wind picked up to 20-25 (ish - this was years ago) and the waves got rather big and rather steep. We could not reef because the instructor said it was too dangerous to go forward of the cabin. This boat required people at the mast in order to reef. (I will never go out in a boat like that again, I don't care if it's a gold plated Hinckley. If it cannot reef from the cockpit it is unfit for open water IMO.)
You instructor was an idiot. At some point it would have been apparent that you needed to reef or drop the main altogether, and it would have been WELL BEFORE the waves got too big and steep to do it safely.

For hundreds of years, plenty of boats have required someone at the mast to hoist, lower or reef the mainsail. With just a tiny bit of commonsense, it's a perfectly safe arrangement.
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Old 30-06-2014, 11:01   #255
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post

.... At some point it would have been apparent that you needed to reef or drop the main altogether, and it would have been WELL BEFORE the waves got too big and steep to do it safely.

For hundreds of years, plenty of boats have required someone at the mast to hoist, lower or reef the mainsail. With just a tiny bit of commonsense, it's a perfectly safe arrangement.
Yes, bad decision making not bad boat. " Reef early, Reef deep".

Even with everything led to the cockpit, situatuons may arise where you need to go forward. This can be done safely with jack lines/harness/etc. However, its not likely the main would have come down off the wind. Would likey have had to head up or heave to in order to reef.
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