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Old 18-05-2014, 01:40   #226
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Going out in a bad weather window unprepared for that weather and beating into the wind is certainly not I would expect from a class that was suppose to teach cat sailing.
In our defense, the weather appeared perfect at the time we left, and it was only from St. John to St. Croix.

That said, there was significant fallout from that particular class. Bottom line: we definitely learned a lot. Really fast.
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Old 18-05-2014, 02:00   #227
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Condomarans don't point well, but there are plenty of monohulls that don't point well. I am not sure which condomono you think points higher and pounds less than a condomaran, but when comparing cats to monos it does not seem reasonable to compare a condomaran to a heavy weather blue water boat, any more than it is reasonable to compare a Hunter to a Gunboat.
Absolutely true. But, I have never sailed a true bluewater gold-plater yacht. A family member does have a 1968 Tartan 27, but other than that I have no experience with Gentlemen's Yachts.

I am comparing this condomaran to the Jeanneau 39 Deck Salon condomono we chartered in the Med. The DS 39 was rock solid, pointed well, was totally comfortable, and inspired great confidence by comparison. We crossed to Corsica and back to France in varied conditions with little fuss. (Okay, one caveat - I hated the roller furler.) We were able to reef when appropriate, the boat didn't feel like it was trying to break apart, and we had a great time. Sure, it pounded a bit in the choppy stuff, which I imagine a Hinckley would not do. But it still felt more secure than the condomaran. I think this comparison is fair as they were both mass production French boats.

I am not unbiased, however. The look of the Jeanneau DS series makes my heart go all aflutter. Catamarans do not. (Except Gunboats, obviously. )
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Old 18-05-2014, 05:01   #228
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

Thats the problem it was a French built cat....(grinn)

Seriously though ever been on any mono in 25 knots with the main stuck ??? I wonder how many of your class would have dropped out then or what your opinion would have been of the mono then instead of a little noise and uncomfortable motion on the cat?
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Old 18-05-2014, 06:23   #229
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

Good point. No, I have never been on a mono in 25 knots with the main stuck. The experience would probably have been even worse. At least with the catamaran the extra energy translated into speed.
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Old 22-05-2014, 00:01   #230
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

I don't get it cat or mono let the main out and reef or turn the boat and reef?

Sail on pounding or not?
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Old 22-05-2014, 04:15   #231
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

Gahh autopsying the event. Okay. We left in perfect weather. I said reef. The book said we didn't need to reef until the wind hit 20 or 25. I was out-voted. So, no reef and me unhappy. Halfway across the water was 8 or 12 thousand feet deep and nothing but fetch until Grand Canary.

After a time, right around when we lost sight of land, the wind picked up to 20-25 (ish - this was years ago) and the waves got rather big and rather steep. We could not reef because the instructor said it was too dangerous to go forward of the cabin. This boat required people at the mast in order to reef. (I will never go out in a boat like that again, I don't care if it's a gold plated Hinckley. If it cannot reef from the cockpit it is unfit for open water IMO.)

We let the sails out, but the wind kept building. We were hitting 12 to 15 knots of boat speed, now. The waves were taller than the cabin. The bows were plunging. The helmsman's entire job was to steer down the waves, which were quartering from the port rear, to avoid pitchpoling the boat. Not much flexibility in direction under the circumstances. A turn into the wind could flip the boat. A turn downwind could pitchpole.

I was consistently convinced that we were going to flip to leeeward because the waves would break under the windward hull and slam the leeeward while the windward came completely out of the water. Then we would surf down the wave and bury the bows in the trough. Water was cascading over the cabin top.

All this was only mildly upsetting until one of the breakers blew the window on the inside of the lee hull. The screws in the plastic frame gave out against the waves and the window popped open. I was standing in the main salon when I saw the door to one of the cabins float by.

Bad place for a window, I thought.

So, that hull flooded. Not great. Now we could barely steer at all and the leeward hull kept getting lower and the windward kept coming higher out of the water at the wave peaks. I was richly irritated at the unreefed sails, by now.

So was the boat, as some of the slugs holding the sail to the mast started to pop out.

It was at this point we noticed that the bilge pump didn't work. The manual backup was inadequate.

A couple of hours and a pretty efficient bucket-line later, everything was fine. We dried the linens in fine the Caribbean sun and and all went ashore for drinks.

This was years ago, and although we are not experienced sailors like many on this forum, we were raw beginners back then. Overall it was probably good for us to experience this, deal with the crisis, and come away with a healthy respect for the ocean.

This all happened in a short time window during what overall was an absolutely amazing charter. The trip was still one of the best times we've ever had.
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Old 22-05-2014, 04:25   #232
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Gahh autopsying the event. Okay. We left in perfect weather. I said reef. The book said we don't need to reef until the wind hit 20 or 25. So, no reef and me unhappy. Halfway across the water was 8 or 12 thousand feet deep and nothing but fetch until Grand Canary.

The wind picked up to 20-25 (ish - this was years ago) and the waves got rather big and rather steep. We could not reef because the instructor said it was too dangerous to go forward of the cabin. .
Bad instructing.
Rising wind and seas ..... always reef... can pull it up again if it settles....
It HAS to come down so should have sent instructor to do it....
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Old 22-05-2014, 04:29   #233
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

Before you all start trashing charterers in general and me in particular, please note that I was just a student on this rather crowded boat. Every charter I have done since learning to sail has been a dream. I have retuned every boat cleaner and with more equipment that when I took it out (I buy stuff like fenders and coffee makers and proper painters and whatever so the next people have a nice time) and I never, ever stress the boat.

I also reef early, and often, and I sail very slowly.
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Old 22-05-2014, 04:34   #234
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Before you all start trashing charterers in general and me in particular, please note that I was just a student on this rather crowded boat. Every charter I have done since learning to sail has been a dream. I have retuned every boat cleaner and with more equipment that when I took it out (I buy stuff like fenders and coffee makers and proper painters and whatever so the next people have a nice time) and I never, ever stress the boat.

I also reef early, and often, and I sail very slowly.
Not trashing charters or you. You got a bad instructor. We all have had them. I wish I could spend more time with some of the delivery skippers here to iron out my faulty learned habits...... So many great sailors on here, even the ones that will piss you off with their personality have a lot to teach us.....
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Old 22-05-2014, 05:25   #235
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pirate Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Not trashing charters or you. You got a bad instructor. We all have had them. I wish I could spend more time with some of the delivery skippers here to iron out my faulty learned habits...... So many great sailors on here, even the ones that will piss you off with their personality have a lot to teach us.....
Bad Teacher... Great Pisser Off'er...
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Old 22-05-2014, 05:51   #236
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

I think the point is that it is not a fault of catamarans in general that in your sole experience on a cat the intstructor: 1. left it too late to reef. 2. and did so on a boat that can only be reefed from the mast. Some cats can be reefed from the cockpit (mine included), others can't. Some monos can be reefed from the cockpit, other can't.

Of course as SimonV points out, as a current cat owner I am incapable of engaging in meaningful discussion on these issues, standing up or sitting down. Afterall, since I own a cat I must be blind to the advanrages of monohulls, having forgotten about my decades of experience in owning and sailing them. I understand SimonV's point, I truly do: just as with issues such as creation and abortion, it is only fundamentalist Christians who are capable of engaging in meaningful discussion. And really, the solution is the same: having gone over to the 'dark side', I gotta get some of that old time religion!

Cheers!

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Old 22-05-2014, 05:58   #237
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

Sounds like a bad case of crappy boat to me.


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Old 22-05-2014, 06:00   #238
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Of course, as a current cat owner I am incapable of engaging in meaningful discussion on these issues, standing up or sitting down. Afterall, since I own a cat I must be blind to the advanrages of monohulls, having forgotten about my decades of experience in owning and sailing them.

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Old 22-05-2014, 06:03   #239
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

The Gemini, you have to go on deck to raise or lower the main, The wind gets to 20 knots

or so, I turn into the wind and drop the main, It all takes about ten minutes and I am back

safely in the cockpit,

There is no way I would wait till the wind was higher to drop my main, The Boat just gets

too fast and unsafe for me to handle on my own,

Its fun going fast, But not in very bad conditions,
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Old 22-05-2014, 06:04   #240
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pirate Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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I think the point is that it is not a fault of catamarans in general that in your sole experience on a cat the intstructor: 1. left it too late to reef. 2. and did so on a boat that can only be reefed from the mast. Some cats can be reefed from the cockpit (mine included), others can't. Some monos can be reefed from the cockpit, other can't.

Of course as SimonV points out, as a current cat owner I am incapable of engaging in meaningful discussion on these issues, standing up or sitting down. Afterall, since I own a cat I must be blind to the advanrages of monohulls, having forgotten about my decades of experience in owning and sailing them. I understand SimonV's point, I truly do: just as with issues such as creation and abortion, it is only fundamentalist Christians who are capable of engaging in meaningful discussion. And really, the solution is the same: having gone over to the 'dark side', I gotta get some of the old time religion!

Cheers!

Brad
SS.... some good news for you.. mono hulls get ports and bulkheads punched in/out as well...
So don't worry.. be happy..
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