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Old 08-05-2014, 05:52   #181
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Then there are the cats that blow over at anchor...
Then there are monos that sink. YAWWWWN.
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Old 09-05-2014, 15:09   #182
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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I grew up sailing and racing Hobies and Prindles. Also had Lasers and Force 5's. I love all types of sailing. I've sailed not thousands of miles but probably a million by this point. I've lived on boats for 15 years and literally have spent more of my life afloat than lubbing land. Yes I am that stupendous.

Cats are great. I flew a hull for 12 miles once. It was a rush. They're especially nice if your woman isn't much of a sailor and you're trying to appease her. Cats are great if you're the type who gets seasick easily. If I'm making a little Bahamas run or skirting the coast then a cat is great. Kids can run laps. I can practice free throws. And when I dock a cat I can line her up, leave the helm, and let the dock apes grab her as she crashes into everything and no one will bat an eyelash because it's exactly what they expect.

Where I prefer a mono hull is when I actually want to sail and experience true natural sailing. The feel of it and the romance. Catamarans feel plastic and boring to me. Kind of like having a big McMansion in a stuffy burb where the next thirty houses are exactly identical. There's no tradition in them. The narrow hulls feel like coffins. The salon on my mono is more spacious and comfortable than the kitchen combo area of my friends' cats. And really the big ones aren't that much faster. Their motion is uncomfortable in any kind of sea.

As far as crossing an ocean, I wouldn't be caught dead in a cat. That's just my prerogative. Not all lows can be dodged or outrun. For those who know cats and have been through a genuine ocean storm, not just a little 50 knot blow, have a schism at the thought of weathering a true storm in a catamaran. 99% of people arguing the storm capabilities of a cat haven't actually been in a real storm. Otherwise they wouldn't be talking.

Then there are the cats that blow over at anchor...

Interesting view on both. Thanks for that.
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Old 09-05-2014, 16:30   #183
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

And then there's reality:

Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - News Article
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Old 10-05-2014, 02:57   #184
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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And then there's reality:

Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - News Article
You should know better than that. Bringing reality and experience into an internet forum. Have you no shame.
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Old 10-05-2014, 05:16   #185
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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You should know better than that. Bringing reality and experience into an internet forum. Have you no shame.
Well,it is a nice article, and it reiterates points that have been talked about for twenty years now... but exactly which reality is it that it has revealed to you?

Both cats and monohulls were beaten about, abandoned and then recovered later. Both types of boats suffered damage, and yes, several monos were rolled or pitchpoled and dismasted. But they too were found later, still afloat and salvageable. Destiny, a 47 foot mono that was apparently pitchpoled, crew injured and then abandoned washed ashore somewhere in the tropics, maybe the Solomons... don't remember... months later. It was stripped and burned by the local islanders, but it had managed to survive after catastrophic damage, all on its own.

While the results are interesting, the sample size is too damn small to be meaningful IMO. For instance, one way to look at the fleet results is that many of the monohulls survived with little damage and no Mayday situations, while all the cats in the storm area were abandoned. I don't think that is a good way to address the data, but it is as statistically relevant as saying that none of the cats pitchpoled or flipped.

This was a truly bad storm which developed with little warning. There were some 40+ boats at risk, many of which were good friends of ours. We were sitting in Opua running radio scheds with many of them, including Quartermaster, the Lidgard 40 which disappeared with no trace, and we agonized with each report or missing report. Those were a couple of hard days for us, and we were not concerned about the number of hulls on the victims of the weather, just about their survival.

These nasty cat vs mono arguments are a waste of time. Each genre has its good examples and its bad, good features and bad, and specific examples of good and bad performance in a wide variety of situations. Why must we spend so much energy arguing about which is better? Surely we have better things to do !

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 10-05-2014, 19:52   #186
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

That's right Jim. So how much do you think statements like: "As far as crossing an ocean, I wouldn't be caught dead in a cat......For those who know cats and have been through a genuine ocean storm, not just a little 50 knot blow, have a schism at the thought of weathering a true storm in a catamaran." add to the discussion? This from someone who's "knowledge" of cats comes from racing Hobies?

Don't you think cat owners have a right to post some FACTS about cats weathering storms in reply to this drivel?

For instance, if I said something like "I used to race a moth dinghy so I know ALL about monohulls. They capsize in the slightest gust, if you don't know what you're doing" Would not feel there was some need to add a different perspective?
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Old 10-05-2014, 22:02   #187
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

I love all boats, Im even into Big Ships,

There is a very big difference between Racing and Cruising Catamarans,

My Paper Tiger is a 14 foot Over Powered Racing Machine, 20 foot Main, Speed is its only requirement, And it is, Very Fast,

It has two empty Hulls, A Stainless H Frame, With Rotating mast and mainsail attached, A mesh deck, Twin Rudders, and thats it, Its made for SPEED,

It Pitchpoles, It goes over sideways, both sides,
The Offside Bow just touches under and your 15 feet in the Air, Instantly, Pitchpoled,

I sailed in very Iffy wind conditions all the time, Very Gusty, And my eleven stone wasnt enough to counter balance it and keep the nose out of the water,

But it was FUN,

All my research on Cats before I bought one, Pitchpoling and Sinking was a very big consideration for me, There is no help where I am going, Hahahahaha

Most Modern Cats have been under powered in their rigging to aleviate this Problem,
A modern Cruising Cat wont pitch pole because they dont have the sail area to cause it,

My Gemini is a Cruiser, A fat over loaded Lump, I live on it, Its a House that Floats, Thats what I wanted, For the conditions I will be sailing in, It doesnt have to go fast,
Just reliable for the 12.000 Miles I want to sail it in, That includes the Tasman, Bass Straight and Southern Ocean,

Something, that the floor is level all the time, Sailing or moored, My days of being at 45 degrees and hanging on all the time, Thats gone, And I wont be going back, I have my Dinghy to remind me of that, Hahahaha.

I have nearly Popped my Gemini over sideways, Inexperience, Stupidity, Ignorance, What ever you want to call it, I learn from my mistakes, Hahahahaha, It wasnt funny at the time,

On the side of a very large wave, Both Boards down, The Lee Board dug in and I nearly went over sideways, I also had full sail up, I was at about 70 Degrees, I wont do that again, Hahahaha,

My Gemini usually travels under sail at about 6 to 9 Knots, Which is sufficient for me,

I get 7 knots on the single Diesel, 3/4 of a GPH, Its cheap to run, Thats only used to get into and out of narrow inlets,
I drop the drive leg into the water at night and use it as a drogue, That keeps me straight while I sleep no matter what the wind does, I am always running before it,

But you buy a Boat for you, Not every one else, It has to do, what ever you want it to do,

Mono, Multi, Surfboard, Who Cares, Unty the rope and cast off,
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Old 11-05-2014, 00:11   #188
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
While the results are interesting, the sample size is too damn small to be meaningful IMO. For instance, one way to look at the fleet results is that many of the monohulls survived with little damage and no Mayday situations, while all the cats in the storm area were abandoned. I don't think that is a good way to address the data, but it is as statistically relevant as saying that none of the cats pitchpoled or flipped.


Cheers,

Jim
Actually it's not, as there were at least two other cats in the area, which didn't issue maydays.

But really the point of posting the article is to show that cats can survive violent storms, and don't automatically flip every time the wind gets a little fresh. Which some people seem to think.
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Old 11-05-2014, 00:46   #189
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Actually it's not, as there were at least two other cats in the area, which didn't issue maydays.

But really the point of posting the article is to show that cats can survive violent storms, and don't automatically flip every time the wind gets a little fresh. Which some people seem to think.
Two other cats in the locus of the main storm? First I've heard of that,and I'd be interested in the details. They were not active on the radio during the storm and the majority of the afflicted boats were checking in with Russel Radio and our less formal nets on a frequent basis.

And I'm happy to admit (like any other observant yottie) that cats don't "automatically flip every time the wind gets a little fresh". Folks who say things like that are stupid and/or ignorant. So sure, the article points that out. It fails to mention how many mono hulled boats were abandoned and didn't sink or have the keels fall off, as an unfortunate number of multihull enthusiasts like to talk about. Or that a number of monos had no significant damage and survived quite well indeed. In fact, the article is superficial and lacks detail on both sides of the argument.

I get quite tired of these arguments and passionate defense of one type of boat or another, coupled with denigration of other types. Specific examples are often cited to "prove" points of view, ignoring examples that "prove" just the opposite view. Here, let me have a go at it: In my personal experience, I have never seen a mono whose keel has fallen off. I have seen a catamaran that flipped. Therefore, monos are safer! (Not).

I know that several of the posters here have a lot invested (both fiscally and emotionally) in their multihull yachts. I personally admire these boats, especially ones that have been "home built" successfully and then cruised. That is a great accomplishment, one that I have neither the skill nor the temperament to emulate. Much the same can be said of those who build and cruise in monohulls. Each group has folks who have literally put their money, time and skill where others mouths are flapping. Again, I can't see why the discussions must devolve into name-calling and vitriol. I guess there are some pretty tender egos on display!

I think that I've said enough now. My best to all yotties, no matter the number of their hulls.

Jim
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Old 11-05-2014, 06:14   #190
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - Home

922 Catamarans and 126 Trimarans in their database. Should be able to find something useful there.
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Old 15-05-2014, 18:37   #191
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
I love all boats, Im even into Big Ships,

There is a very big difference between Racing and Cruising Catamarans,

My Paper Tiger is a 14 foot Over Powered Racing Machine, 20 foot Main, Speed is its only requirement, And it is, Very Fast,

It has two empty Hulls, A Stainless H Frame, With Rotating mast and mainsail attached, A mesh deck, Twin Rudders, and thats it, Its made for SPEED,

It Pitchpoles, It goes over sideways, both sides,
The Offside Bow just touches under and your 15 feet in the Air, Instantly, Pitchpoled,

I sailed in very Iffy wind conditions all the time, Very Gusty, And my eleven stone wasnt enough to counter balance it and keep the nose out of the water,

But it was FUN,

All my research on Cats before I bought one, Pitchpoling and Sinking was a very big consideration for me, There is no help where I am going, Hahahahaha

Most Modern Cats have been under powered in their rigging to aleviate this Problem,
A modern Cruising Cat wont pitch pole because they dont have the sail area to cause it,

My Gemini is a Cruiser, A fat over loaded Lump, I live on it, Its a House that Floats, Thats what I wanted, For the conditions I will be sailing in, It doesnt have to go fast,
Just reliable for the 12.000 Miles I want to sail it in, That includes the Tasman, Bass Straight and Southern Ocean,

Something, that the floor is level all the time, Sailing or moored, My days of being at 45 degrees and hanging on all the time, Thats gone, And I wont be going back, I have my Dinghy to remind me of that, Hahahaha.

I have nearly Popped my Gemini over sideways, Inexperience, Stupidity, Ignorance, What ever you want to call it, I learn from my mistakes, Hahahahaha, It wasnt funny at the time,

On the side of a very large wave, Both Boards down, The Lee Board dug in and I nearly went over sideways, I also had full sail up, I was at about 70 Degrees, I wont do that again, Hahahaha,

My Gemini usually travels under sail at about 6 to 9 Knots, Which is sufficient for me,

I get 7 knots on the single Diesel, 3/4 of a GPH, Its cheap to run, Thats only used to get into and out of narrow inlets,
I drop the drive leg into the water at night and use it as a drogue, That keeps me straight while I sleep no matter what the wind does, I am always running before it,

But you buy a Boat for you, Not every one else, It has to do, what ever you want it to do,

Mono, Multi, Surfboard, Who Cares, Unty the rope and cast off,
Looks like I want my boat to do what you are basically doing. Living on it for extended periods of time and traveling around for long distances. I found 2 Gemini 3000 for under 50k that are loaded with all the goodies for some great sailing days. They are definitely under consideration.
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Old 15-05-2014, 20:02   #192
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

Razoo - I have the answer - here is a boat just made for you (and NO I am not the broker for it!! - I know nothing about it - this is just an attempt to be lighthearted)
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Old 15-05-2014, 20:23   #193
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
SNIP

Where I prefer a mono hull is when I actually want to sail and experience true natural sailing.

SNIP
Not me, I like my cat so I can experience false unnatural sailing.
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Old 15-05-2014, 20:53   #194
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

Hahahaha, So thats what its called,
Your Seawind and my Gemini are very similar in looks and size, So it would apply to my Gemini as well,
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Old 15-05-2014, 21:00   #195
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Re: At The Risk of Starting WWlll

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Razoo - I have the answer - here is a boat just made for you (and NO I am not the broker for it!! - I know nothing about it - this is just an attempt to be lighthearted)
Awesome! Not sure I can afford a cloud like that, but at least I know one of the names I was considering has been stolen lol.
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