Army surplus extractor chute as drouge.

[Favorite Things]

As a Great Lakes sailor I can see few reasons to invest in this type of safety equipment.
The Lake I cannot speak for is Superior. Honestly the fetch there west to east might be sufficeient to generate those waves.
I think the western end however becomes more shallow which actually creates the wave not the wind.

If you are concerned you might consider heaving-to in Gale force conditions.
2 or 3 years ago the summer had some really heavy winds and T-storms but a good anchoring should hold.

The chop on the Great Lakes can be pretty significant. Years ago racing Star Boats would drive the mast through the bottom of the boat.

Hope this helps. Few places are more beautiful.


Linda

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by SailorMAK

I have been considering the purchase of a drogue for a small sailboat. I tend to be conservative with the amount of sail I raise but if conditions warrant it, I'd like to have a drouge to set. In shopping the internet I found a fella who is selling small drogues for small boats. Upon closer inspection of his advertisement it turns out he selling Army Surplus Emergency Extractor Chutes. It seems to me that the would have to be strong but, would they be durable? So, I'm wondering if anyone has ventured a try with anything other than a standard marine drogue. I've also considered simply trailing 500' of line... I'd be interested in what you've got to say on this.

A surplus parachute should only be used as a parachute sea anchor and not as a storm drogue. For one, there’s too much yawing with a parachute when you tow it behind a boat. Yawing can cause significant chafing. Not to mention too much holding power can cause your cockpit to flood with water.

The grey surplus chute in the linked picture appears to inflate too easy. This can indicate the fabric is very thin. It might work for a small boat if used for drift fishing, not for rough seas.

The $69 orange surplus chute promoted by Thinwater was originally supplied by Gerrard Fiorentino and one of his ASD (American Surplus Dealers) partners many decades ago. The orange chutes are from the 1960s and make good anchors for boats up to approximately 26’.

Fiorentino still has a couple thousand orange chutes in stock at $40 apiece. Includes new zigzag stitching on all of the shroud lines.

[Fi2010]

Promoting the Series Drogue is off topic. Claiming the JSD is the best piece of safety equipment is not accurate.

The U.S. Coast Guard test from 1987 was clear. The JSD had the highest failure rate compared to the single element conical drogue/sea anchor. The JSD only matched the performance of the single element drogues after the required weights were attached to the JSD. There was no mention of weight requirements for the single element drogue or sea anchor.

Here’s what Donald Jordan wrote in the 1987 USCG report “…under normal operating conditions the free end of the Series Drogue would have a 30-35 lb. weight attached.” Additional tests using 20 lbs. and 35 lbs. for a 90 element Jordan drogue were conducted with Jordon concluding, “For smaller boats a 25 lb. anchor is adequate. For large boats a 35 to 50 lb. anchor is preferable.”

It’s possible a great deal of the current failures occurring with the Series Drogue are due to the media recommending too little weight for the JSD. Forum members are claiming the JSD is designed as a one-time use device. This might explain the second issue of cone breakage.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by wgoodbye

It will be interesting to get more detail on what happened and the specifics of her setup, including the type of rope used, was the JSD home-made or professionally made, etc. Up until this point, the JSD system has had a perfect record but nothing on this earth stays perfect for long.

Yes, in reading about the JSD, it's clear that lots of details can make a big difference in its durability and performance. In addition to the issues you bring up, there's also the way it's attached to the boat, and the construction of the bridle and even whether open or closed thimbles were used. I doubt that the line just parted due only to excessive loading if the rope was sized as recommended by the 2 major builders of series drogues. It will surely be interesting to learn exactly where the line parted and if there is any indication of what caused the breakage.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

Promoting the Series Drogue is off topic. Claiming the JSD is the best piece of safety equipment is not accurate.

The U.S. Coast Guard test from 1987 was clear. The JSD had the highest failure rate compared to the single element conical drogue/sea anchor. The JSD only matched the performance of the single element drogues after the required weights were attached to the JSD. There was no mention of weight requirements for the single element drogue or sea anchor.

Here’s what Donald Jordan wrote in the 1987 USCG report “…under normal operating conditions the free end of the Series Drogue would have a 30-35 lb. weight attached.” Additional tests using 20 lbs. and 35 lbs. for a 90 element Jordan drogue were conducted with Jordon concluding, “For smaller boats a 25 lb. anchor is adequate. For large boats a 35 to 50 lb. anchor is preferable.”

It’s possible a great deal of the current failures occurring with the Series Drogue are due to the media recommending too little weight for the JSD. Forum members are claiming the JSD is designed as a one-time use device. This might explain the second issue of cone breakage.

Do you have a link to the CG report that you reference above? A weight at the end of the JSD is a required part of the system so of course without the appropriate weight, it won't work as advertised.

I just read another CG report from testing done in 1987 http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/pd...uardreport.pdf
that was quite complimentary of the JSD so would be very interested in reading the report you are referring to.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Do you have a link to the CG report that you reference above? A weight at the end of the JSD is a required part of the system so of course without the appropriate weight, it won't work as advertised.

Continued promotion of the JSD is off topic. Thought the subject matter is about using surplus parachutes.

To answer your question. The information you seek is within the CG report you’re linking to. The drawbacks and positives of the JSD are listed. Same with the single element drogue and sea anchor.

It’s sad how weight recommendations for the JSD are ignored in media advertorials and by promoters of the JSD. Maybe the 35 to 50 pounds of weight is a hard sell. Especially if competing equipment doesn’t require any weight as mentioned in the 1987 CG report.

Yes, Donald Jordan, the primary author of the 1987 CG report, pushes his product as a better alternative. Jordan still admits the single element drogue and sea anchor perform equally well to his JSD. Details typically omitted by JSD promoters.

Single element devices tend to be less expensive than the JSD. As surplus parachutes are less money than manufactured equipment. The actual topic of this thread. Although contacting a manufacturer to see if they have discounted used equipment may be another option.

[Hoodsail]

Take a look at "Storm Tactics" by the Pardeys. They describe the use of a military chute off the bow of their monohull in hazardous weather to good effect while hove-to.
Jim i thought i read on the GGR site that Susie Goodall's drogue parted sometime prior to her pitchpoling and her weather vane failed while she was in the southern ocean..
thnks
dave

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by Hoodsail

Take a look at "Storm Tactics" by the Pardeys. They describe the use of a military chute off the bow of their monohull in hazardous weather to good effect while hove-to.
Jim i thought i read on the GGR site that Susie Goodall's drogue parted sometime prior to her pitchpoling and her weather vane failed while she was in the southern ocean..
thnks
dave

Excellent book. The Pardeys’ purchased a Buord parachute from Gerrard Fiorentino in the late 1960s. The Buord is a very strong mesh parachute built in the early 1950s. Saw black and white footage showing a Buord chute deploy off the back of an anti-submarine missile.

[bcboomer]

Originally Posted by Hoodsail

Take a look at "Storm Tactics" by the Pardeys. They describe the use of a military chute off the bow of their monohull in hazardous weather to good effect while hove-to.
dave

While I respect the Pardey's accomplishments and sailing abilities, remember that their technique was developed on a smaller, full keel, very stable boat. It may not work well for a production fin keeled boat.
I would try it in a good blow before depending on it in a storm.

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by wgoodbye

Don't reinvent the wheel.
This problem has already been solved.
Use a Jordan Series Drogue!

Jordan Series Drogue

Hundreds of vessels have used this system successfully and no vessels have been lost or capsized after using one in many severe storms.

I looked into these but decided not to pursue them because of the extremely high load requirement for attachment points. For my boat the load rating is about 12,000 lbs, none of my cleats can handle that. I will probably go with a Fiorentino drogue that can also be used to steer the boat.

[psk125]

Before setting a drogue in storm conditions, it might be a good idea for SailorMAK to consider how his boat might respond to it. A daysailer with a drogue set off the stern in the Manitous with its sharp 10' seas might not move down a wave fast enough. The wave would come up behind the boat, the stern would be held down or back by the drogue, and the wave would proceed to fill the cockpit, then possibly burst through the cuddy doors, and sink the boat. A drogue set off the bow might work similarly, though the upwards splash of the wave hitting the cabin trunk as the bow dove into it might be more spectacular. Survival tactics and boat designs have evolved since Adlard Coles and Heavy Weather Sailing. Working with the conditions and with the boat you have may mean that a drogue is not the answer for this boat in the conditions it is likely to encounter. Boats survive in the Southern Ocean by moving along WITH the waves as fast as possible, rather than trying to slow themselves. Susie Goodall is a case in point. SailorMak's daysailer is not crossing the Bering Sea in wintertime. What is the boat like and what conditions is it likely to encounter?

It would make sense for SailorMak to try handling his boat in nasty conditions so as to see what works for him and his boat and what doesn't. Each boat and each skipper is different. Some options, like heaving to, may allow too much leeway for a lake. Some conditions may remove the rig before there's a chance to do anything. Before purchasing a perhaps false sense of security, SailorMak might want to find out more about his boat and how it behaves. He may find that having a weather radio on board would help him avoid situations that might put him and his vessel in danger in the first place.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by bcboomer

While I respect the Pardey's accomplishments and sailing abilities, remember that their technique was developed on a smaller, full keel, very stable boat. It may not work well for a production fin keeled boat.
I would try it in a good blow before depending on it in a storm.

Excellent point. The Pardeys, and others, recommend practicing with the boat one is using. Only through practice can one get the drill down to a reasonably good set up. Practice makes perfect.



I used it on a Sabre 24 with a swing keel about thirty miles out from the Maryland shore just south of the Deleware Bay. The seas were ten to fifteen and breaking, and the winds were thirty to thirty five knots, gusting to fifty. It worked very well although I had to spend some fifteen to twenty minutes making adjustments to get the optimum set up. As they said, each boat is different.


Keep in mind this was used as a sea anchor, not a drogue. I apologize for going off topic.

[Hoodsail]

Take a look at Jeanne Socrates website as she just deployed her Jordan Series drogue with a low system moving through her position south of south Africa. She experienced winds up to 50 knots and estimated 16 ft seas that were steep (not breaking). drogue kept her stern to the waves, but was unable to retrieve it until wind died over 1-2 days. then took her 3 hours to retrieve. She is on about day 151 of her solo, non-stop, unassisted circumnavigation, from british columbia, canada. Oh, at the ripe age of 76! i believe this would be her 2nd or 3rd solo circumnavigation.
https://svnereida.com/blog/5029-day-...-for-the-welsh

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Hoodsail

Take a look at Jeanne Socrates website as she just deployed her Jordan Series drogue with a low system moving through her position south of south Africa. She experienced winds up to 50 knots and estimated 16 ft seas that were steep (not breaking). drogue kept her stern to the waves, but was unable to retrieve it until wind died over 1-2 days. then took her 3 hours to retrieve. She is on about day 151 of her solo, non-stop, unassisted circumnavigation, from british columbia, canada. Oh, at the ripe age of 76! i believe this would be her 2nd or 3rd solo circumnavigation.
https://svnereida.com/blog/5029-day-...-for-the-welsh

Quite an impressive feat for anyone. I have great respect for what she has accomplished. That is a lot of work for anyone, especially at the age of 76.

[Fi2010]

The topic is about saving money with surplus. Another way to save money is to contact a para-anchor manufacturer and see if they offer used sea anchors or storm drogues. The series drogue promoters in this thread are trying to sell the most expensive product on the market, when everything else is less money and easier to deploy!