Are you put off sailing in the EU?

[robert sailor]

We have cruised a big chunk of the South Pacific as well as the North Pacific and Mexico of course but this time we are heading to the Med. Actually we leave in 3 days so our excitement meter is starting to kick in. We accept the fact that we are visiting new countries and we will abide by their rules just the same as they have to abide by ours when visiting our country. The Med is the birthplace of modern civilizations and its unbelieveably rich in history...whats not to love about that. We don't mind having to move around from time to time, heck the distances are quite short compared to what we were used to plus its a good reason to visit new places.

[cheoah]

Originally Posted by Astrid

St. Petersburg, Russia?

Well I was wondering if they were as relaxed as Turkey or Croatia, just haven't heard anyone mention it yet.

[Astrid]

Relaxed? No, definitely not.

http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Russia

[somedayy]

[QUOTE=David_Old_Jersey;1204695]One thing we are not short of in Europe is history . We pretty much invented it .
I think Africa and the Middle East might have you beat

One of things I noticed that slowly dawned on me when first spending extended time in the new world (the former colonies ) was the absence of any "proper" history!,
What does this mean? "proper history"

........after all, Europe invented Western Civilisation - albeit could argue we stole the basic idea from foreigners as we did for much else
Yea, because nobody lived in North America before the Europeans arrived.

[Astrid]

Yea, because nobody lived in North America before the Europeans arrived.

Well, quite a few lived here before Europeans, most of whom had long histories of their own, particularly the civilizations in Mexico, Central and South America, but the conquest of the Americas by Europeans ended those long and old traditions. We Icelanders brought our history with us to Iceland, which did not need conquering--just settling, so in our case our history was merely an extension of that from the rest of Scandinavia. The English settlers and the French settlers who settled in Mainland North America brought their histories with them, but as far as the French settlers went, the Seven-Years War found them absorbed by the victorious English; then the Revolution of 1776 saw most of the American English colonies independent of Great Britain and starting anew. The old extensions of English history were pushed into the back ground and the new country looked to the future instead of the past. In many ways it was the same with the Spanish territories when they gained independence from Spain as well.

[goboatingnow]

Idiots Guide to Sailing in the EU

Since then, I've talked to other people who say " Good God no. You need these forms filled out in triplicate, an I-something or another, a ten thousand dollar bond and a visa if you're going to stay more than 30 days."

I would love to see Europe but to be honest, I'm not even sure what's in the EU. Am I going to run into the same thing? I would think you have to contact the particular country's embassy to check in and out, is that correct or is there some central place since it is the EU?

18 months? If you wanted to see anything, I don't think you could get around Ireland and England in that amount of time, let alone Sweden, Finland and some car trips in Germany.

Where do you go to get out of the EU? How long do you have to be gone before you can come back and continue?

I know, lots of stupid questions but it's better to ask before the docklines are cast off just to make sure you have all your ducks in a row.

Theres a few people , making this out to be more difficult then it is.

Time allowances

For VAT on the Boat , nominally 18 months , requires no pre-authorisation, extenbable to 24 months on application in a particular country. VAt clocks resets on any trip outside the customs union of the EU. ( The EU directive does not state an actual time that has to be spent outside, most people seem to just show ,they went to outside the area)

Immigration Limit , 90days in 180, 180 days starts on first entry into Schengen area. UK, Ireland Croatia , Turkey etc not in Schengen

Entry requirements

Checkin Procedure, For your first entry into the Schengen Area ( and for you first entry into any other EU non Schengen country), you will need to get your passports stamped. In the Med many many marinas have no post officials, hence you may have to search around to find them, usually the marina operators will assist you. There is "technically" a requirement to go to a "port of entry" , but this only tends to be enforced in Croatia, Greece and Turkey in my experience.

Passports are not routinely stamped in the EU anymore, so you may have to ask.

There is no requirement to present at customs, this is only done if you feel you have something to declare. ( hide the AK OK). AND YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DECLARE, right , move on , nothing to see here. ( PS but a piece of plastic tape over any mouths that feel any compulsion to blabber!!) .

Once inside the Schengen Area, there is no requirement to recheck in or check out in any Schengen Area country further . There is no requirement in any European country to get exit permissions ( ie Zarpe etc).

Technically , time at sea outside the 12 mile limit is time outside the Schengen area and doesn't take from your 90 days. However technically if you go outside the Schengen area to claim that exemption, then you have to check in again !!!

Reality
OK. Thats the legalities, The realities are different. This is Europe not the US, we don't necessarily have a rule for everything and not every rule is thought through.

Furthermore EU law, must be transposed into National Law to be effective and often national law differs in tone, is more involved or less enforced (or just ignored) then the original EU Directive, leading to some confusion and variable implementation on the ground . Thers no final answer just live with it, we all do here

IN reality, for visiting yachts, official oversight is almost non-existent, partioculary in Spain, France, Italy and virtually all Northern European countries. Portugal can be a pain depending on who you meet, and as one goes east, things get more complicated ( a little more complicated). IN Ireland for example, youll have a hard time getting anyone interested in your arrival , much less stamping things, just go of and have a Guiness, Everyone knows you come fro "Amerikay" anyway, They'll find you soon enough , sort of thing, As was said , it helps when Bobs your Uncle.

OK lets deal with the myths

Since then, I've talked to other people who say " Good God no. You need these forms filled out in triplicate, an I-something or another, a ten thousand dollar bond and a visa if you're going to stay more than 30 days."

Hogwash, There are no forms, all you need is your passports. In Greece , turkey and croatia there ( still are for non EU ) are cruising permits. They can all be acquired(bought) on arrival at the port of entry. They are not expensive, nor widely inspected, simples.

Where do you go to get out of the EU? How long do you have to be gone before you can come back and continue?

People continually mix up the VAT allowances with the Visa allowances.

Vat( 18 months) is "reset" as described earlier by the simple process of leaving the Customs Terrority of the EU , no minimum time is specified. technically out to 12 mile limit and back is sufficient. In practice NO ONE CARES ABOUT VAT on a non EU leisure boat crewed by Non-eu citizens.

IN the Schengen Area you are limited to 90 days out of 180. Once you have used up the 90 days you must leave for 90 days. By playing the timescales you can get in effect about 179 days in two 90 day blocks back to back.

You reset the Schengen visa by staying out of the Schengen area countries for the allotted time .

IN general , if you stay in any EU country for more then 180 days out of a calendar year, you can be regarded as a residxent and subject to local laws, just like any other resident, that can mean exposure to wealth and asset taxes, compulsory national registration of the boat, compulsory certificates of competence, etc etc etc, please dont do this without thinking about it. ( Or if you do , don't be like the fool Belgian when asked in a Spanish marina, how long are you there " oh 1 year" and then screamed when they taxed me like a Spaniard!). Try and look gormless and shrug your shoulders, that usually works.!!.


Yes you are correct the Schengen tourist visa is restrictive for long term cruisers, No doubt in time, it may be dealt with , but the number of long term non-EU cruisers in Europe amounts to a handful and there are still ways to handle the issue legally and enjoy your self.

I would love to see Europe but to be honest, I'm not even sure what's in the EU. Am I going to run into the same thing? I would think you have to contact the particular country's embassy to check in and out, is that correct or is there some central place since it is the EU?

Yes contact EuroBoat, Commission Strasse 9999, Brussels present your first born, 1000000 euros, 5 triplicate passports, 10 copies of a form in two languages neither of which you understand and withstand a 2 hour interview , where an aloof Frenchman will berate your culture. OK feel better now, formalities passed, go cruising

I'm not even sure what's in the EU

Im not even sure even I can answer that!!!!!!!!
Half the problem is people cant seem to accept there is such a light touch and go seeking trouble!!.
Dave

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Theres a few people , making this out to be more difficult then it is.

Time allowances

For VAT on the Boat , nominally 18 months , requires no pre-authorisation, extenbable to 24 months on application in a particular country. VAt clocks resets on any trip outside the customs union of the EU. ( The EU directive does not state an actual time that has to be spent outside, most people seem to just show ,they went to outside the area)

Immigration Limit , 90days in 180, 180 days starts on first entry into Schengen area. UK, Ireland Croatia , Turkey etc not in Schengen

Entry requirements

Checkin Procedure, For your first entry into the Schengen Area ( and for you first entry into any other EU non Schengen country), you will need to get your passports stamped. In the Med many many marinas have no post officials, hence you may have to search around to find them, usually the marina operators will assist you. There is "technically" a requirement to go to a "port of entry" , but this only tends to be enforced in Croatia, Greece and Turkey in my experience.

Passports are not routinely stamped in the EU anymore, so you may have to ask.

There is no requirement to present at customs, this is only done if you feel you have something to declare. ( hide the AK OK). AND YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DECLARE, right , move on , nothing to see here. ( PS but a piece of plastic tape over any mouths that feel any compulsion to blabber!!) .

Once inside the Schengen Area, there is no requirement to recheck in or check out in any Schengen Area country further . There is no requirement in any European country to get exit permissions ( ie Zarpe etc).

Technically , time at sea outside the 12 mile limit is time outside the Schengen area and doesn't take from your 90 days. However technically if you go outside the Schengen area to claim that exemption, then you have to check in again !!!

Reality
OK. Thats the legalities, The realities are different. This is Europe not the US, we don't necessarily have a rule for everything and not every rule is thought through.

Furthermore EU law, must be transposed into National Law to be effective and often national law differs in tone, is more involved or less enforced (or just ignored) then the original EU Directive, leading to some confusion and variable implementation on the ground . Thers no final answer just live with it, we all do here

IN reality, for visiting yachts, official oversight is almost non-existent, partioculary in Spain, France, Italy and virtually all Northern European countries. Portugal can be a pain depending on who you meet, and as one goes east, things get more complicated ( a little more complicated). IN Ireland for example, youll have a hard time getting anyone interested in your arrival , much less stamping things, just go of and have a Guiness, Everyone knows you come fro "Amerikay" anyway, They'll find you soon enough , sort of thing, As was said , it helps when Bobs your Uncle.

OK lets deal with the myths



Hogwash, There are no forms, all you need is your passports. In Greece , turkey and croatia there ( still are for non EU ) are cruising permits. They can all be acquired(bought) on arrival at the port of entry. They are not expensive, nor widely inspected, simples.



People continually mis up the VAT allowances with the Visa allowances.

Vat( 18 months) is "reset" as described earlier by the simple process of leaving the Customs Terrority of the EU , no minimum time is specified. technically out to 12 mile limit and back is sufficient. In practice NO ONE CARES ABOUT VAT on a non EU leisure boat crewed by Non-eu citizens.

IN the Schengen Area you are limited to 90 days out of 180. Once you have used up the 90 days you must leave for 90 days. By playing the timescales you can get in effect about 179 days in two 90 day blocks back to back.

You reset the Schengen visa by staying out of the Schengen area countries for the allotted time .

IN general , if you stay in any EU country for more then 180 days out of a calendar year, you can be regarded as a residxent and subject to local laws, just like any other resident, that can mean exposure to wealth and asset taxes, compulsory national registration of the boat, compulsory certificates of competence, etc etc etc, please dont do this without thinking about it. ( Or if you do , don't be like the fool Belgian when asked in a Spanish marina, how long are you there " oh 1 year" and then screamed when they taxed me like a Spaniard!). Try and look gormless and shrug your shoulders, that usually works.!!.


Yes you are correct the Schengen tourist visa is restrictive for long term cruisers, No doubt in time, it may be dealt with , but the number of long term non-EU cruisers in Europe amounts to a handful and there are still ways to handle the issue legally and enjoy your self.


Half the problem is people cant seem to accept there is such a light touch and go seeking trouble!!.
Dave

In a nutshell....
Don't over think it... we don't have Homeland Security so if your passports not from Asia or Africa you'll be fine...

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by somedayy

My post wasn't meant to be taken terribly seriously (nor intended as a bout of mine is better than yours ) - just trying to say that despite the paperwork hassle (real and imagined) that Europe well worth a looksee, especially for an extended period (so yer miss the "it's Tuesday it must be Belguim" effect ).....but whether folks come or not - no sweat off my nose ..........Europe will still be here .

[frank_f]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Idiots Guide to Sailing in the EU




Theres a few people , making this out to be more difficult then it is.

Time allowances

For VAT on the Boat , nominally 18 months , requires no pre-authorisation, extenbable to 24 months on application in a particular country. VAt clocks resets on any trip outside the customs union of the EU. ( The EU directive does not state an actual time that has to be spent outside, most people seem to just show ,they went to outside the area)

Immigration Limit , 90days in 180, 180 days starts on first entry into Schengen area. UK, Ireland Croatia , Turkey etc not in Schengen

Entry requirements

Checkin Procedure, For your first entry into the Schengen Area ( and for you first entry into any other EU non Schengen country), you will need to get your passports stamped. In the Med many many marinas have no post officials, hence you may have to search around to find them, usually the marina operators will assist you. There is "technically" a requirement to go to a "port of entry" , but this only tends to be enforced in Croatia, Greece and Turkey in my experience.

Passports are not routinely stamped in the EU anymore, so you may have to ask.

There is no requirement to present at customs, this is only done if you feel you have something to declare. ( hide the AK OK). AND YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DECLARE, right , move on , nothing to see here. ( PS but a piece of plastic tape over any mouths that feel any compulsion to blabber!!) .

Once inside the Schengen Area, there is no requirement to recheck in or check out in any Schengen Area country further . There is no requirement in any European country to get exit permissions ( ie Zarpe etc).

Technically , time at sea outside the 12 mile limit is time outside the Schengen area and doesn't take from your 90 days. However technically if you go outside the Schengen area to claim that exemption, then you have to check in again !!!

Reality
OK. Thats the legalities, The realities are different. This is Europe not the US, we don't necessarily have a rule for everything and not every rule is thought through.

Furthermore EU law, must be transposed into National Law to be effective and often national law differs in tone, is more involved or less enforced (or just ignored) then the original EU Directive, leading to some confusion and variable implementation on the ground . Thers no final answer just live with it, we all do here

IN reality, for visiting yachts, official oversight is almost non-existent, partioculary in Spain, France, Italy and virtually all Northern European countries. Portugal can be a pain depending on who you meet, and as one goes east, things get more complicated ( a little more complicated). IN Ireland for example, youll have a hard time getting anyone interested in your arrival , much less stamping things, just go of and have a Guiness, Everyone knows you come fro "Amerikay" anyway, They'll find you soon enough , sort of thing, As was said , it helps when Bobs your Uncle.

OK lets deal with the myths



Hogwash, There are no forms, all you need is your passports. In Greece , turkey and croatia there ( still are for non EU ) are cruising permits. They can all be acquired(bought) on arrival at the port of entry. They are not expensive, nor widely inspected, simples.



People continually mis up the VAT allowances with the Visa allowances.

Vat( 18 months) is "reset" as described earlier by the simple process of leaving the Customs Terrority of the EU , no minimum time is specified. technically out to 12 mile limit and back is sufficient. In practice NO ONE CARES ABOUT VAT on a non EU leisure boat crewed by Non-eu citizens.

IN the Schengen Area you are limited to 90 days out of 180. Once you have used up the 90 days you must leave for 90 days. By playing the timescales you can get in effect about 179 days in two 90 day blocks back to back.

You reset the Schengen visa by staying out of the Schengen area countries for the allotted time .

IN general , if you stay in any EU country for more then 180 days out of a calendar year, you can be regarded as a residxent and subject to local laws, just like any other resident, that can mean exposure to wealth and asset taxes, compulsory national registration of the boat, compulsory certificates of competence, etc etc etc, please dont do this without thinking about it. ( Or if you do , don't be like the fool Belgian when asked in a Spanish marina, how long are you there " oh 1 year" and then screamed when they taxed me like a Spaniard!). Try and look gormless and shrug your shoulders, that usually works.!!.


Yes you are correct the Schengen tourist visa is restrictive for long term cruisers, No doubt in time, it may be dealt with , but the number of long term non-EU cruisers in Europe amounts to a handful and there are still ways to handle the issue legally and enjoy your self.


Half the problem is people cant seem to accept there is such a light touch and go seeking trouble!!.
Dave

Thanks Dave.

That makes the EU easier than the US. If I had more confidence in my sailing abilities, I might make for Ireland right off the bat and save the shake down cruise through the US.

But I've already promised Kettlewell some beers when I go through the canal system. Can't break a beer promise, that's sacrilege.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by cheoah

So what if you are in the Baltic? Where do you go from there after 90 days?

.

Well, Russia a possibility. Or Norway (non-EU). The Baltic is a fantastic place to cruise. Denmark has something like 400 islands (you can anchor anywhere you like unless there is a sign specifically forbidding it (usually military). Also something like 300 wonderful small harbors to lie in.

Sweden and Finland have enormous archipelagos (countless small islands and rocks), to cruise in, tons of harbors.

Norway has the deepest fjords in the world.

Germany has many fine harbors as do the Baltic states and Poland.

And trying to find a customs office to clear in to is damn near impossible. Just sail around as you please.

Actually, the Baltic is probably the finest cruising area in the world. Only problem is the weather - short summers and they can be cold and rainy.

But the beer is good and cold and the women are beautiful and hot.

What more do you want?

[goboatingnow]

Or Norway (non-EU). The Baltic is a fantastic place to cruise. Denmark has something like 400 islands (you can anchor anywhere you like unless there is a sign specifically forbidding it (usually military). Also something like 300 wonderful small harbors to lie in.

Sweden and Finland have enormous archipelagos (countless small islands and rocks), to cruise in, tons of harbors.

Norway has the deepest fjords in the world.

Germany has many fine harbors as do the Baltic states and Poland.

And trying to find a customs office to clear in to is damn near impossible. Just sail around as you please.

Actually, the Baltic is probably the finest cruising area in the world. Only problem is the weather - short summers and they can be cold and rainy.

But the beer is good and cold and the women are beautiful and hot

All of the above countries are of course in the Schengen Area, including Norway.

Let me agree with Carnstenb. The Baltic is a fab fab cruising ground, actually better then the Med. Great facilities, stunning scenery, available marina spaces and reasonable prices (EXCEPT the beer prices, !!!).

I can confirm the women throw off their clothes at the first sight of a ray of sun, unlike the French who in my experience are getting more and more prudish. ( I blame the Internet).

Dave

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I can confirm the women throw off their clothes at the first sight of a ray of sun, .

Dave

This is not the least of the attractions of sailing the Baltic

[Kenomac]

Dave Goboatingnow has it right. Our limited experience in the Med has been the same. Unlike USA waters where I've met quite a few members of the Homeland security force while aboard our vessel, in Guernsey and Spain where we've spent most of our time.... I can't even tell you what a patrol boat looks like, I've never seen one.

The local Spanish have actually encouraged us to stay as long as possible, even offering up the services of their lawyers to help facilitate a longer legal stay in the country.

No hassles at European airport customs either, except when re-entering the USA where we get loads of questions from US customs agents ("where have you been," "why did you go there" etc.). In Spain, they just look at our passport, stamp it and wave us through.... no hassle.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by carstenb

This is not the least of the attractions of sailing the Baltic

no true, true, it is however way up there after say windmills!!

[goboatingnow]

Warning This post is not PC

Funny, Ive always found American Women sailing in the Carribean to be quite uninhibited as regards public nudity, but not so sailing in the US. IN the Med Id hand it to the Italians, with the french following close behind. Then wrinkly Germans ( where are all teh non wrinkly Germans??), in the Baltic, well The Scandinavians see so little sun, you'd have to spend it nude when it does shine wouldnt you!! . Nobody wants to see the Brits and Irish nude anyway, so thats that.!!