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Old 09-04-2013, 16:20   #121
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Dockhead.

While its true in the UK and Ireland and in many parts of northern France and Northern Europe , you can still berth at town quays or along side an accommodating fishing boat , the same is not true in the Med , especially the Western med , not to mention the lack of fishing boats there anyway.

In Spain , parts of Portugal , France Italy and Croatia is hard to impossible to access such facilities. Often only marinas exist. Further west it become doable though less so as time passes.

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Old 09-04-2013, 16:28   #122
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Further west it become doable though less so as time passes.
Further west of Portugal?
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Old 09-04-2013, 16:28   #123
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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon
We're planning to cruise the Med in two years. I'm dealing with the Schengen rules by obtaining dual citizenship in Italy. Is the 18-month VAT rule going to be the same for a U.S. flagged vessel?

Also, what's the real scoop on cruising costs? We've done plenty of travelling in Europe so we're familiar with food and land transportation costs etc.

But what about the costs specifically related to operating a saiboat? I've heard that in prime areas the mooring costs asre exhorbitant. How difficult is it to find legal anchorages in the Med? What about the cost of spare parts if something breaks?
If you intend to use an Italian passport , then you need to carry comphrensive proof that you are not an Italian resident. Otherwise you could be regarded as an EU citizen avoiding VAT. Other them that you are entitled to the 18 month concession.

As to sailing costs. I ve outlined these. Diesel is around 1.60 -1.80 euros a litre. Marina Berths are in the50-70 range and hard to get in peak season. Spares are readily available as are yards , all at the usual multiple boat buck pricing.

Anchorages are widely available at generally free , holding is variable and shelter can leave a lot to be desired

All the rest is as per land travel.

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Old 09-04-2013, 16:30   #124
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Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Further west of Portugal?
Actually I meant further " east ". Dooh
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Old 09-04-2013, 18:17   #125
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

My Italian passport will recite my U.S. address, and so will my U.S. passport and my USCG Certificate of Documentation. I will also have a bill of sale stating that I purchased my boat in the U.S (which of course I did). So I doubt if "VAT evasion" will be a problem. The question is whether or not the 18 month rule applies even though I have an Italian passport.

I realize that diesel will be 30-40% more than in the U.S, but I'm really more concerned about berthing costs. I understand that the drill is to "Med moor" with the fishing boats, but suppose there isn't room? I don't want to pay 80-90 Euros a night to back up against a seawall arse first. I'd rather have a U.S.- style mooring ball or the ability to anchor out.

If the marina charges in the Med are as high as some of the charges in Florida (or on the South coast of Cape Cod for that matter) then I may just go to the Bahamas or the Southern Carribean instead.
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Old 09-04-2013, 20:21   #126
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Show your Italian passport to immigration and your US passport to customs Play the system heheh
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Old 09-04-2013, 20:54   #127
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Show your Italian passport to immigration and your US passport to customs Play the system heheh
May the "Force " be with You!

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Old 09-04-2013, 22:45   #128
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

This is all very encouraging, it does seem pretty straightforward.

Any good resources on the web, or cruising guides for anchorages, etc?

I built a facility on farm for making charcuterie from our pork, ie bacon, hams, pancetta, guanciale, salumi, sausages, pate's and on and on. I really need to spend more time in Europe for professional development and I think this is a practical way to do it. I just can't imagine having a hard time pulling together some really good meals with access to good local markets, and propane to keep my grill and stove running. And some Vino.... all part of the research you know. It'll make a good marketing story anyway....

Right now I'm thinking June; NC to BErmuda, then Azores, then wherever the wind takes me quickest from there, with Portugal, N Spain and Atlantic France all options before heading into the Med for winter. Northern Europe will have to wait for now. Frankly I'm really excited about the Azores. Someone gave me Slocums book when I first discovered sailing and I've always wanted to visit. Surely they do some interesting things with meat and food, and Falo Portugues (de brasil), or rather Spanuguese now.

How about coming home? Canaries to the Caribbean in spring? Should I just overwinter in the Canaries? Can I? That means I'd miss Italy though, an important stop for my work. I made a friend in St Simons, GA who was from the Canaries. He sailed his Pearson Triton from there to the Canaries via Bermuda. Would be good to catch up with him.

Thanks for any input on resources and whether those routes makes sense. I'm really digging this thread, along with planning my first European cruise.
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Old 09-04-2013, 23:03   #129
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
My Italian passport will recite my U.S. address, and so will my U.S. passport and my USCG Certificate of Documentation. I will also have a bill of sale stating that I purchased my boat in the U.S (which of course I did). So I doubt if "VAT evasion" will be a problem. The question is whether or not the 18 month rule applies even though I have an Italian passport.
It's up to you ... your choice. Either you claim to be US resident and abide by 18 months rule, or pay VAT as any Italian resident would, and stay as long as you wish. Can't be one or another depending on the day, situation, VAT/Tax obligations.
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Old 10-04-2013, 00:01   #130
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It's up to you ... your choice. Either you claim to be US resident and abide by 18 months rule, or pay VAT as any Italian resident would, and stay as long as you wish. Can't be one or another depending on the day, situation, VAT/Tax obligations.
Alas, with dual residency, you can.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:28   #131
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
My Italian passport will recite my U.S. address, and so will my U.S. passport and my USCG Certificate of Documentation. I will also have a bill of sale stating that I purchased my boat in the U.S (which of course I did). So I doubt if "VAT evasion" will be a problem. The question is whether or not the 18 month rule applies even though I have an Italian passport.
Been a while since I have seen an Italian passport, but I don't recall them having an official address in the back. I could be wrong of course.

I would also suggest you have other documentary evidence that you genuinely live permanently in the US (i.e. not in the EU) - a US tax return (with your US address on it) and evidence of your US employment (or US business ownership) would be handy as well as your US bank statements......well, as long as they tell the same story (US fella, living and working permanently in the US).

With stuff like this (proving tax position / tax residency) there is usually no absolute (let alone easy / simple) way to prove something (especially a negative!) - it's a collection of evidence to avoid getting sent a bill to formally dispute afterwards (you may win the argument later - but better to avoid in the first place).

Of course, am a firm beleiver in not confusing officialdom with facts (they seem happier that way ) - whether any paperwork matters will only be important if officialdom puts you on the spot and the best defence against that is not being in one place too long (a rolling stone gathers no officialdom ) and I am guessing that with a boat will not be hard to acheive - likely more scope for problems if staying in the same berth / marina for 5 years.......
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:20   #132
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Not that it is pertinent to this thread, but a dock space in Newport, RI, is around $5 per foot per night, plus electricity, which starts at $20 per day for 30 amps.
We're in Med France Sete ("fisherman's Venice") right now docked along one of the canals in the old city and are paying 0.75 euro (about a dollar) per foot including water and electricity. And we are running two electrical heaters most of the time as it's still cold...

Food prices are also reasonable depending on what supermarket you choose.
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:28   #133
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Did Italy ever get rid of their cruising tax?

A few years ago they implemented a controversial "tax" for seasonal cruisers, but I haven't kept track of it.
Was only for Italian registered vessels anyway. And it got greatelly reduced as everybody was going to take there boats away from Italy...
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:04   #134
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Been a while since I have seen an Italian passport, but I don't recall them having an official address in the back. I could be wrong of course.
I don't know about Italian passports, but my Belgian passport does mention that it has been issued by the consulate in Bern... Might be the same with Italian passports.
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:39   #135
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pirate Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by cheoah View Post
This is all very encouraging, it does seem pretty straightforward.

Any good resources on the web, or cruising guides for anchorages, etc?

I built a facility on farm for making charcuterie from our pork, ie bacon, hams, pancetta, guanciale, salumi, sausages, pate's and on and on. I really need to spend more time in Europe for professional development and I think this is a practical way to do it. I just can't imagine having a hard time pulling together some really good meals with access to good local markets, and propane to keep my grill and stove running. And some Vino.... all part of the research you know. It'll make a good marketing story anyway....

Right now I'm thinking June; NC to BErmuda, then Azores, then wherever the wind takes me quickest from there, with Portugal, N Spain and Atlantic France all options before heading into the Med for winter. Northern Europe will have to wait for now. Frankly I'm really excited about the Azores. Someone gave me Slocums book when I first discovered sailing and I've always wanted to visit. Surely they do some interesting things with meat and food, and Falo Portugues (de brasil), or rather Spanuguese now.

How about coming home? Canaries to the Caribbean in spring? Should I just overwinter in the Canaries? Can I? That means I'd miss Italy though, an important stop for my work. I made a friend in St Simons, GA who was from the Canaries. He sailed his Pearson Triton from there to the Canaries via Bermuda. Would be good to catch up with him.

Thanks for any input on resources and whether those routes makes sense. I'm really digging this thread, along with planning my first European cruise.
When you get to the Azores try and visit several Islands.. they're all somewhat individual.. great spot. When you head on E aim for NW Spain and visit the Ria's along the N. coast... places like Viviero etc... before heading S again.. even if you decide not to do the N aim high for Porto... as the Stream/winds will be trying hard to push you S.
As for the Canaries.. bit too touristy for me... instead of crossing from there try the 'Old Route' down to the Cap Verde's... well worth the visit...
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