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Old 09-04-2013, 10:38   #106
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
The med is a great place to sail, but it's not cheap.

Lots of fun places to go, but expenses there can add up in a hurry.
On a first pass , this may seem so. But in reality, its really only the price of marina berths that causes some pain. ( and boaty stuff in general) But for example, I was sailing on a friends 8m yacht with SWIMBO, day hoping along the Cote D'Azure, arguably the most expensive place in the med ( well after Palma) and I was staying in the fanciest of marinas with the hoi-polloi for €7-9 a night!!!!. ( inc lecky/water).

If you shop in supermarkets or outdoor markets , you can get the finest ingredients for peanuts, beautiful cheeses, vegtables etc. Drink is cheap too. backstreet restaurants have great value especially at lunchtime. Sure avoid the seafront tourist traps etc. We were easily able to live for about €30 a day, ex berthing, and that include lunch out. ( a good bit less on days where we cooked all meals aboard).

In Italy again you can be paying 50-70 a night for a 14-15m berth, but food and drink is cheap if you shop for ingredients or follow the locals, I was buying beautiful fresh pizza for 5 euros a pop and a beer for a euro, that aint bad.

For marina use get a electric grill plate ( common in france) rather then try BBQing, which is frowned upon in a marina. Sizzle up a few prawns etc, yum. cost = peanuts.

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Old 09-04-2013, 10:43   #107
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Schengen -- yes. EU -- no. Norway was suggested for a VAT run, not a visa run. Anyway there is no such thing as a "visa run" -- you have to stay out for 90 days. Not like VAT, where one day out of the EU is enough.
There is no need to go anywhere to reset the VAT clock. In practice , if you are in the EU for this type of time, you alomost inevitably have (a) gone outside teh EU territorial limit and (b) moved country. Since there is no register of TIR , no oversight, no inspection, You can just draw a line on a chart etc. The official has to prove you where inside for that time otherwise. ( The directive does not specify that you must prove anything).

Look, for non EU boats, VAT just isnt an issue,period ( it never was anyway) , it brought up by people that perceive issues that arnt there , or listen to internet gossip or mis-construe other issues as VAT issues.

Just listen to the first experiences of US cruisers on this forum that have been there.

Dave
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:46   #108
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
On a first pass , this may seem so. But in reality, its really only the price of marina berths that causes some pain. ( and boaty stuff in general) But for example, I was sailing on a friends 8m yacht with SWIMBO, day hoping along the Cote D'Azure, arguably the most expensive place in the med ( well after Palma) and I was staying in the fanciest of marinas with the hoi-polloi for €7-9 a night!!!!. ( inc lecky/water).

If you shop in supermarkets or outdoor markets , you can get the finest ingredients for peanuts, beautiful cheeses, vegtables etc. Drink is cheap too. backstreet restaurants have great value especially at lunchtime. Sure avoid the seafront tourist traps etc. We were easily able to live for about €30 a day, ex berthing, and that include lunch out. ( a good bit less on days where we cooked all meals aboard).

In Italy again you can be paying 50-70 a night for a 14-15m berth, but food and drink is cheap if you shop for ingredients or follow the locals, I was buying beautiful fresh pizza for 5 euros a pop and a beer for a euro, that aint bad.

For marina use get a electric grill plate ( common in france) rather then try BBQing, which is frowned upon in a marina. Sizzle up a few prawns etc, yum. cost = peanuts.

Dave
Funny that you say that, because I was thinking about the marina costs.

With the weather there, they can be unavoidable. But the scenery can't be beat. I don't remember the one euro beers, except for the ones we drank on the boat.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:55   #109
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Funny that you say that, because I was thinking about the marina costs.

With the weather there, they can be unavoidable. But the scenery can't be beat. I don't remember the one euro beers, except for the ones we drank on the boat.
IN small local bars, the type tourists dont frequent , you will find beer that cheap, albeit not in "pints" as us are used to. ie quite small measures.

In the supermarket you can easily buy 1 litre bottles of say San Miguel/Kronenberg for a euro ( or even less) in the supermarkets. Turkey , you can get EFES beer for peanuts too.

Not that beer is everything or course.

Yes the Marina costs especially in some parts of Spain, Mallorca, Med France, Corsica, Sardinia etc, and Italy, and increasingly Croatia are pricey. This is purely a function of demand. ( I dont think Americans who haven't sailed the med simply dont realise the huge huge numbers of boats especially sailboats in the med, theres really nothing like it in the US) ) Greece and Turkey have cheaper places to stay.

If you want cheap (er) marinas try Altantic France, & Portugal, Northern Europe/Baltic etc, cost of suncream plummets accordingly

Get used to the Anchor, if you want to cut costs. try and sail outside peak season also. ( though high season in France and Italy seems to getter longer IMHO).

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Old 09-04-2013, 11:21   #110
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6 Bottles of Super Bock will cost you E2.65 in a Portuguese supermarket.. and that's the mid range.. cheap is E1.67...
In Spain if you look around they have the menu de dia... some places do it for lunch... some do it for supper... good basic 3 course meal for around 8-9 euros... go 3rd line for restaurants, better food and atmosphere than front line... unless you want to pose... where us EU folk have the advantage is our boats are mainly under 10-12metres so marina costs are lower than the average US cruiser at 44ft+ will rack up the costs... another thing to be aware off... the June, July, August months should be planned for area's with anchorages galore.. those 3 months are as expensive as the other 9 months together.
From The UK to Turkey I used 3 marina's... Barbatte when we nearly sank... waited for the wind to swing W for Gib... Almerimar where we got the damage repared and S Sicily for 36hrs due to a gale.. shallow sea's there..
Greece we anchored or tied up for free.. Turkey... anchorages...
As GBN says... don't over think it...

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
Funny that you say that, because I was thinking about the marina costs.

With the weather there, they can be unavoidable. But the scenery can't be beat. I don't remember the one euro beers, except for the ones we drank on the boat.
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Old 09-04-2013, 11:31   #111
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

its worth pointing out that 15metres is often the break point between pricey and "OMG how much", often 15M+ berths are wider and hence you are being charged square area, even if you dont need it.

under 10M is reasonable and under 8M is "just like the locals" and priced accordingly

Dave
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Old 09-04-2013, 11:40   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
its worth pointing out that 15metres is often the break point between pricey and "OMG how much", often 15M+ berths are wider and hence you are being charged square area, even if you dont need it.

under 10M is reasonable and under 8M is "just like the locals" and priced accordingly

Dave
Sounds like I must stay away

However, in Holland there are enough places to anchor or stay in the old municipal harbors which are very nice too; those are all over Europe I think
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Old 09-04-2013, 11:47   #113
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Sounds like I must stay away

However, in Holland there are enough places to anchor or stay in the old municipal harbors which are very nice too; those are all over Europe I think

As you know Nick, In the Western Med, its hard to access town quays and so on, often either they are converted already to marinas or you cant stay there anyway. As you go west and especially west of the Adriatic it gets a bit better. In Northern Europe, the proliferation of marinas has not been so great and the authorities know they have to entice cruisers.

The med is full of sailboats , thats really the issue.

Dave
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:13   #114
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
Funny that you say that, because I was thinking about the marina costs.

With the weather there, they can be unavoidable.
We have been in the Med for over five years now. I have not had five visits to any marinas or tied to any jetties (apart from three times when refuelling). So it certainly is avoidable .
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:14   #115
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

It is always interesting to read of expensive places, that are less expensive than here in the North East of the USA. Heck I looked up some marinas in Bimini the other day and a slip is $15/day less than a $55/night mooring here at home (still too much for me to spend time in them so back to the anchor threads for me).
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:19   #116
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It is always interesting to read of expensive places, that are less expensive than here in the North East of the USA. Heck I looked up some marinas in Bimini the other day and a slip is $15/day less than a $55/night mooring here at home (still too much for me to spend time in them so back to the anchor threads for me).
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Old 09-04-2013, 13:36   #117
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

We're planning to cruise the Med in two years. I'm dealing with the Schengen rules by obtaining dual citizenship in Italy. Is the 18-month VAT rule going to be the same for a U.S. flagged vessel?

Also, what's the real scoop on cruising costs? We've done plenty of travelling in Europe so we're familiar with food and land transportation costs etc.

But what about the costs specifically related to operating a saiboat? I've heard that in prime areas the mooring costs asre exhorbitant. How difficult is it to find legal anchorages in the Med? What about the cost of spare parts if something breaks?
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Old 09-04-2013, 14:31   #118
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
As you know Nick, In the Western Med, its hard to access town quays and so on, often either they are converted already to marinas or you cant stay there anyway. As you go west and especially west of the Adriatic it gets a bit better. In Northern Europe, the proliferation of marinas has not been so great and the authorities know they have to entice cruisers.

The med is full of sailboats , thats really the issue.

Dave
Even the Cote d' Azur in peak season is not going to faze Americans, talking about berthing costs, who are used to sailing in, say, S Florida, as I am. I have never berthed anywhere so expensive as in SW Florida, where rinky-dink marinas charge over, often well over, $2 a foot. To put berthing costs into perspective -- the South Coast of England is the most expensive berthing in Atlantic Europe -- people winge about it all the time. But a first-rate marina with every conceivable infrastructure in the center of the action, say Hamble Point Marina, still costs only 2.65 per meter (about $1.30 a foot), including electricity. In Atlantic France, berthing costs are generally half that or less.

I paid $3.50 per foot (!) recently at South Seas Plantation Marina on Sanibel Island, Florida, a nice resort but a very rudimentary marina. I've never heard of such prices for berthing anywhere in Europe. That would be nearly $200 for my boat; crazy.

In most of Europe -- maybe not in the Cote d' Azur -- you can still berth in real ports; just tie up to the quay with the fishing fleet. It's generally much cheaper than marinas and much cooler, much more interesting and atmospheric than being in a big boat parking lot which is what marinas are. In Weymouth, where the 2012 summer sailing Olympics were held, I often tie up to the town quay right under the harbormaster's office, between the fishing boats. It costs peanuts and it is wonderful -- right in the middle of the ancient town.

View from my cockpit, on the town quay in Weymouth:

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Weymouth:

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Rafted up to a square rigger in Weymouth Harbor:

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Here is my boat among the fishing fleet in West Bay, Bridport (the place called "Port Bredey" in multiple Thomas Hardy novels):

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Old 09-04-2013, 14:44   #119
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

Not that it is pertinent to this thread, but a dock space in Newport, RI, is around $5 per foot per night, plus electricity, which starts at $20 per day for 30 amps.
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Old 09-04-2013, 16:02   #120
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Hubris is not an easy word to define, but your post does a pretty good job of it. The sea has no respect for technology.
Agreed that the sea has no respect for technology.

In the first para I stated "my posting this little satirical diatribe", and I now see that I should have emphasized the word satirical. It was actually a rant about reliance on modern technology and to point out that people sailed in the Med and across the Atlantic long before electronic devices were invented. That you apparently missed the stated indication about how to read the post and believe the post came across as hubristic reflects upon my limitations at writing. Thank you for drawing that to my attention.

James
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