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Old 08-04-2013, 16:57   #91
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

Like Russia, Norway is also not EU, but is at the far Western end of the Baltic, not too convenient if you are in Sweden, Poland, Finland, etc.
Well I'm a little unclear on Norway, I thought they were Schengen. I do very much intend to return to Norway by boat, but it does seem like a bit of a haul for a visa trip if you have worked your way well into the Baltic or Gulfs of Finland/Bothnia.

I'm not put off by the complexity of sailing to the EU, but clearly one needs to either plan well, or have the money to fly in and out. That is prolly the easiest option: Store the boat on hard and stop the VAT clock, fly home/elsewhere, come back and go cruising to the next port.

This is a great thread for Europe-bound cruisers. I wonder if commonwealth citizens, ie Bahamas, realize any visa benefits as compared to US? Doubtful, but worth looking into.
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Old 08-04-2013, 17:18   #92
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by cheoah View Post
Well I'm a little unclear on Norway, I thought they were Schengen. I do very much intend to return to Norway by boat, but it does seem like a bit of a haul for a visa trip if you have worked your way well into the Baltic or Gulfs of Finland/Bothnia.

I'm not put off by the complexity of sailing to the EU, but clearly one needs to either plan well, or have the money to fly in and out. That is prolly the easiest option: Store the boat on hard and stop the VAT clock, fly home/elsewhere, come back and go cruising to the next port.

This is a great thread for Europe-bound cruisers. I wonder if commonwealth citizens, ie Bahamas, realize any visa benefits as compared to US? Doubtful, but worth looking into.
Schengen -- yes. EU -- no. Norway was suggested for a VAT run, not a visa run. Anyway there is no such thing as a "visa run" -- you have to stay out for 90 days. Not like VAT, where one day out of the EU is enough.
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Old 08-04-2013, 17:22   #93
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Originally Posted by cheoah View Post

Well I'm a little unclear on Norway, I thought they were Schengen. I do very much intend to return to Norway by boat, but it does seem like a bit of a haul for a visa trip if you have worked your way well into the Baltic or Gulfs of Finland/Bothnia.

I'm not put off by the complexity of sailing to the EU, but clearly one needs to either plan well, or have the money to fly in and out. That is prolly the easiest option: Store the boat on hard and stop the VAT clock, fly home/elsewhere, come back and go cruising to the next port.

This is a great thread for Europe-bound cruisers. I wonder if commonwealth citizens, ie Bahamas, realize any visa benefits as compared to US? Doubtful, but worth looking into.
Putting the boat on the hard doesn't in itself " stop the vat clock "

Dave
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Old 08-04-2013, 17:24   #94
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Hmmmm.... That got me thinking.... Please don't take offense as I believe you speak from conviction, but your comment added to other things I've read on CF (ref dangers of sailing in Mexico for example) sort of tipped the scale towards my posting this little satirical diatribe.

Merchant ships and fisherman have sailed the Med for what, three thousand something years? And didn't men of yore sail the Great Triangular Trade Route from Europe to the Carribean, up the east coast of N. America, then back to Europe?

They had the sun, stars, and a sextant.
....We, cruising yachts, have that plus GPS.

They sailed with hard-earned knowledge of seasonal weather and trade winds.
....We've that plus several electronic means for daily wxr updates to
....include satellite observation systems.

They sailed with a muttered prayer to the wind gods to avoid calms.
....We've (most of us) diesel motors with fuel galore.

They sailed off full knowing 'twas up to them - fix things that break or die.
....We've also that foresight. And that maybe our EPIRB will bring aid.

They were hard men in hard times aboard sailing ships.
....Some cruising yachts serve ice cream at noon on the equator. Have DVDs
....to hand lest somebody be bored. Sail in packs, chatting daily with each
....other for moral support. Go only when and where "others" say it's safe.
....They carry invisible dock lines.

As for me.... If needed then I'll take a bit of cold, some wind and waves and rain, some excitement along the way should it bring me towards new ports and all that they entail. I'm not yet dead.

My apologies extended for those I might have offended. I know - It's the kind of talk that would get me 86'd from the pub. Oh well...
They also died in droves. !!

Dave
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Old 08-04-2013, 17:25   #95
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Some seem to imply that the 90 days in 180 in a Schengen area is really only a problem if you make it one, but doesn't it become quite apparent to whatever immigration official you see as you are finally checking out of the Schengen area? Or, do they not really look at your passport and say, "Have a nice trip?" That hasn't been my experience with European officialdom coming and going--I have found them courteous, but extremely vigilant.
If you arrive and depart by yacht , you will not find much enforcement of the Schengen rules. But flying through airports will expose you to greater vigilance.

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Old 08-04-2013, 17:27   #96
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

great, great thread. Cruising the Med is top of our bucket-list.

Buying a lottery ticket now.
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Old 08-04-2013, 17:39   #97
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I was quite serious about Lebanon... it's very pretty I'm told and good for cruising incl. US flagged. Shame that Cypress and Malta are EU but between Turkey and Lebanon there is much to see in 90 days... you would need a lifetime probably.

And then there's the Bosporus...
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Old 08-04-2013, 17:54   #98
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pirate Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I was quite serious about Lebanon... it's very pretty I'm told and good for cruising incl. US flagged. Shame that Cypress and Malta are EU but between Turkey and Lebanon there is much to see in 90 days... you would need a lifetime probably.

And then there's the Bosporus...
N. Cyprus is Turkish so you should have no problems there...
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Old 08-04-2013, 18:49   #99
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Putting the boat on the hard doesn't in itself " stop the vat clock "

Dave
Right, I mean put 'in bond' and extending it 6 mos, to 24 mos. That's how I'm interpreting it anyway.

It's not that the rules are complicated, but more so that Europe is complicated! To a yank anyway. Good to know about changes in Croatia.

I wonder how economic challenges in Europe might affect enforcement? Here in NC, when there is a budget crisis, you are much more likely to get a ticket over a warning. I think the concern for some of us is that we might blur the lines just a little, while following the spirit of the law, but find our yachts impounded with some sack of gold needed to get it out.

I'd be inclined to follow the letter of the law, and make my itinerary match it. Prolly take some marathon delivery-type legs but whatever it takes.

Thanks for the dialogue, especially helpful to hear from Europeans on this forum.
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Old 08-04-2013, 20:05   #100
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

Ok....
First, Norway IS a schengen country , but NOT a EU country.
Another thing , If you come to norway DO NOT LEAVE THE BOAT HERE!!!
You can stay here for one year with your boat , but if you leave the boat here for 6 weeks , you WILL be in dire straits. If you do so , you will be fined , + you will be forced to import the boat to norway, paying 25% of the boat value PLUS 25% of the calculated freight price of your boat from it's home (flag) country!!


There is two solutions to the VISA problems as I see it:

1: Apply for a extended VISA before you enter schengen. Remember , the VISA waiver exemption is not extendable (exept if provable force majure or severe personal or medicinal reasons)

2: apply for a residence permit in the country you want to spend the LEAST amount of time in.. It will give you free movement in the schengen area , but they will tax your boat if you stay in that country for too long , as you have a residence permit. This is NOT the same as a green card. You can, as a non EU resident, get up to 5 years temporary residence permit, with or without work permit.

Most rules are here: MediaVisa.net

.manitu
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Old 08-04-2013, 20:30   #101
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

I cruised from Ireland and the people are warm and friendly but the weather is not, I now cruise the French, Italian and Spanish coastal areas as well as the Inland waterways of Europe. If you are careful with your research you can find places with micro climates which make great wintering spots. The Mediterranean like any other cruising area has it's pro's and cons and as someone has already said there' so much to see. I'd love to have a crack at the Great Loop but when I hear some of the stories it puts me off.
Wherever you cruise be happy and enjoy it.
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Old 09-04-2013, 07:57   #102
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Oops.... Time for Plan B.
Thanks for the info.
You still have Montenegro and Albania. And Turkey not far from there...
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:25   #103
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

Quote:
Originally Posted by svmariane View Post
Hmmmm.... That got me thinking.... Please don't take offense as I believe you speak from conviction, but your comment added to other things I've read on CF (ref dangers of sailing in Mexico for example) sort of tipped the scale towards my posting this little satirical diatribe.

Merchant ships and fisherman have sailed the Med for what, three thousand something years? And didn't men of yore sail the Great Triangular Trade Route from Europe to the Carribean, up the east coast of N. America, then back to Europe?

They had the sun, stars, and a sextant.
....We, cruising yachts, have that plus GPS.

They sailed with hard-earned knowledge of seasonal weather and trade winds.
....We've that plus several electronic means for daily wxr updates to
....include satellite observation systems.

They sailed with a muttered prayer to the wind gods to avoid calms.
....We've (most of us) diesel motors with fuel galore.

They sailed off full knowing 'twas up to them - fix things that break or die.
....We've also that foresight. And that maybe our EPIRB will bring aid.

They were hard men in hard times aboard sailing ships.
....Some cruising yachts serve ice cream at noon on the equator. Have DVDs
....to hand lest somebody be bored. Sail in packs, chatting daily with each
....other for moral support. Go only when and where "others" say it's safe.
....They carry invisible dock lines.

As for me.... If needed then I'll take a bit of cold, some wind and waves and rain, some excitement along the way should it bring me towards new ports and all that they entail. I'm not yet dead.

My apologies extended for those I might have offended. I know - It's the kind of talk that would get me 86'd from the pub. Oh well...
Hubris is not an easy word to define, but your post does a pretty good job of it. The sea has no respect for technology.

I wintered in Southern Italy a few years ago, and there were days when the cargo ships sought shelter.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:31   #104
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

The med is a great place to sail, but it's not cheap.

Lots of fun places to go, but expenses there can add up in a hurry.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:28   #105
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

Quote:
Right, I mean put 'in bond' and extending it 6 mos, to 24 mos. That's how I'm interpreting it anyway.

It's not that the rules are complicated, but more so that Europe is complicated! To a yank anyway. Good to know about changes in Croatia.

I wonder how economic challenges in Europe might affect enforcement? Here in NC, when there is a budget crisis, you are much more likely to get a ticket over a warning. I think the concern for some of us is that we might blur the lines just a little, while following the spirit of the law, but find our yachts impounded with some sack of gold needed to get it out.

I'd be inclined to follow the letter of the law, and make my itinerary match it. Prolly take some marathon delivery-type legs but whatever it takes.

Thanks for the dialogue, especially helpful to hear from Europeans on this forum.
The rules arnt complicated , whats complicated about two rules, one VAT the other immigration.

As to VAT bond etc. This is really "oldspeak" from before the introduction of the 18 month TIR (Temporary import relief). Under teh new 18 month TIR, any country can extend the 18 months to a maximum of 24 months on application. ( I suspect the officials will run around working this out if you ask), In practice because resetting the VAT clock is so easy, its not a feature anyone will ever really use.

NOTE extending the TIR from 18 to 24 months is not a"bond". You continue to use the boat as normal , A Bond , or more correctly to put it in "bond" is to bind up the asset in a agreement where customs duties are not payable. Use of the boat may be severely restricted or not `s determined by individual customs.

Quote:
I think the concern for some of us is that we might blur the lines just a little, while following the spirit of the law, but find our yachts impounded with some sack of gold needed to get it out.
To my knowledge, unless you have dodgy registration, or problems with proof of identify, outstanding personal warrants etc, there have been no seizures of foreign yachts ever. This is Europe, we like boats.

Quote:
I wonder how economic challenges in Europe might affect enforcement?
what economic challenges , as a recent newspaper (nice matin) in the Cote D'azure says "Crise, Quelle Crise".

Dont overthink things
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