Are you put off sailing in the EU?

[cahlgren]

Sorry if the updates are sparse - there hasn't been much new news. We left Portugal almost a month ago, the marina manager who signed the impound notice will have a meeting with the Customs legal office in a week or so (if Customs follows up), the EC Commission has stated that we have not abused the temporary importation process and we have about another 60 days to appeal our case. We have no indication that this is over, so we wait - outside Portugal.

[sepharad]

I find them incredibly onerous. I find virtually every aspect, with a VERY few exceptions, far more convoluted and bureaucratic here. To say that the 50 states create a far more complex situation can only come from someone outside the US or Canada. Each EU country has drastically different rules, fees and enforcement. I was utterly wrong when I thought I would find uniformity here.

I am a dual National STRUGGLING with RE- registration, due to Brexit. Insuring is even perhaps more bizarre. I have had two companies refuse to insure because I proposed registering in Portugal...oops they wont insure Portugal or Polish registrations. Then I found out how insane Portugal's registration process is, cancel that idea.

I ran into the Dutch/Belgian registrations scams. "Lite" registration that ISN'T registration and registration for non-Belgians non-existant.

In the states I can walk in, put down my cash and buy. I can go either the state route in the state where I live, then use the boat in all 50 states, or the coast guard route for international waters. $26. I don't have to prove I have passed a stepped level of classes "allowing" me to go different distances from shore. And the French navy wont be boarding to check the expiration date on my liferaft...a liferaft I am not even required to own.

As to having to move my boat every 180 days OUT of the EU and even worse, MYSELF every 90 days and stay out for another 90...

Yes, I am put off and so are others. Buying and keeping a boat and coping with the bureaucracy and VAT that no EU member has any business demanding keeps people away. Why should I pay a VAT on a boat I built in the US 20 years ago? How does France or spain have ANY claim on my boat value? Because Europeans tolerate it.

There are some great places to sail here. There are some astonishing sailors. But the interstate/intrastate bureaucracy here is crushing.

The UK will soon be joining the 90 day club. I expect to see the Red ensign thinning out too.

[boatman61]

Leave/make it US registration and follow the 18mth rule.
Sailing to Gibraltar or Morocco is no hardship.. do some shopping, see the sights then sail back.
Thats what I will be doing with my Red Duster if Brexit happens.

[benvanstaveren]

Originally Posted by sepharad

In the states I can walk in, put down my cash and buy. I can go either the state route in the state where I live, then use the boat in all 50 states, or the coast guard route for international waters. $26. I don't have to prove I have passed a stepped level of classes "allowing" me to go different distances from shore. And the French navy wont be boarding to check the expiration date on my liferaft...a liferaft I am not even required to own.

In the countries I'm a resident in, I can also put down my cash and buy. I can get my boat registered in France no problem since I'm a resident. The key word here is "resident". I wouldn't be able to register jack bleep in the USA since I'm not a resident.



As far as EU regulations go for proving your competence, as far as I know the EU rules are that you need to have the license you would require in your home country, and if your home country does not require licenses, that at least you have an ICC.



The fact that France, for example, has a list of required equipment that goes beyond what the USCG requires is just a fact of life. You want to sail French waters? Follow the rules. The same way that I would have to follow US rules if I were to sail in the USA.



Can't help but get a little vibe here from you folks across the pond that goes "we're Americans, we should be allowed to do whatever".

[Chotu]

So true about Europe. A dream destination, but what a mess.

Because the boat stuff is such a mess, I was looking at doing an RV there.

Nope!! Even worse! They have emissions zones that bar you from entering a geo fenced area. Some require diesels to keep out, some require only electric cars, etc. Fines are around $300 if you follow your GPS into the wrong area.

These emission zones are set up and administered not on an EU level, not on a country wide level, buy on a local level! They all require you to get your vehicle tested and buy a sticker for it to prove your emissions.

If you bought all the stickers needed to tour Europe, you wouldn't be able to see out the windshield!
These areas cover every major attraction in Europe as well as plenty of minor cities.

Am absolute nightmare for an RV there and it's only getting worse. Not at all worth visiting anymore, unfortunately. It's sad.

[Palarran]

We were never full time liveaboards so the 90 day rule didn't hurt us much. The 18 month rule isn't that hard either unless you simply don't want to move your boat much. Add Turkey, Tunisia, and Albania on to Morocco and Gibraltar and it's not that hard to do.

I liked the Transit Log process in Greece much more than worrying about Shengren and temporary importation. But I disliked clearing into and out of every island in the Caribbean even more. The Bahamas - Gravy.

[Pete7]

I hope to reach retirement age and spend my time cruising Europe. They have great wine and the wild animals don't generally eat people.

Sure there are taxes but that's life.

Pete

[sepharad]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Leave/make it US registration and follow the 18mth rule.
Sailing to Gibraltar or Morocco is no hardship.. do some shopping, see the sights then sail back.
Thats what I will be doing with my Red Duster if Brexit happens.

Unless youre a UK citizen. Then you have to stay out of the entire zone, for 90 days.

If you are a EU citizen, I the boat can stay in, if VAT is paid.

or they pay 1500€ to the Dutch or something like 2500€ to the Maltese etc.

That is why the answer to the original question is YES, bureaucracy is exactly why Americans stay away. Too much hassle.

Most either stay away or just rent short term. The Med is crowded, so probably better off with fewer people.

I think it's a shame the UK presence in the Med will be reduced. Hundreds of years of sailing here, beurocrafied...if thats a word. Beurocraficated?

I think it would be nice if we could just sail where we liked. When we like, but so much for my fantasies.

[sepharad]

Originally Posted by benvanstaveren

In the countries I'm a resident in, I can also put down my cash and buy. I can get my boat registered in France no problem since I'm a resident. The key word here is "resident". I wouldn't be able to register jack bleep in the USA since I'm not a resident.



As far as EU regulations go for proving your competence, as far as I know the EU rules are that you need to have the license you would require in your home country, and if your home country does not require licenses, that at least you have an ICC.



The fact that France, for example, has a list of required equipment that goes beyond what the USCG requires is just a fact of life. You want to sail French waters? Follow the rules. The same way that I would have to follow US rules if I were to sail in the USA.



Can't help but get a little vibe here from you folks across the pond that goes "we're Americans, we should be allowed to do whatever".

You can register in the state of Delaware, bizarrely enough. And it's not about being an American as I am also Portuguese. Its about people, somehow especially sailing people. It just seems wrong to bottle them up.

Most countries make ridiculous rules. The US as much as anyone else. They then enforce them on others. It makes them no less ridiculous. I don't believe a non-commercial foreign vessel MUST have a liferaft in France. But they can come aboard and fine you if you choose to have one, that isn't date stamped the way they want. If NONE is required, how can they rationally enforce the status of one? Illogical bureaucracy.

I personally have one. But this illustrates my statement denying uniformity of regulation in the EU. It scares Americans away...which WAS the question posed after all. So since the question was about "across the pond" perhaps that is important in answering the question posed.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by sepharad

Unless youre a UK citizen. Then you have to stay out of the entire zone, for 90 days.

If you are a EU citizen, I the boat can stay in, if VAT is paid.

or they pay 1500€ to the Dutch or something like 2500€ to the Maltese etc.

That is why the answer to the original question is YES, bureaucracy is exactly why Americans stay away. Too much hassle.

Most either stay away or just rent short term. The Med is crowded, so probably better off with fewer people.

I think it's a shame the UK presence in the Med will be reduced. Hundreds of years of sailing here, beurocrafied...if thats a word. Beurocraficated?

I think it would be nice if we could just sail where we liked. When we like, but so much for my fantasies.

Being a far seeing UK citizen I saw this coming 8yrs ago and started the probationary residency process, 3yrs ago I qualified for full residency so If Brexit happens I can fly the Duster and just do the 18mths in out with no sweat.
Many however have left things to the last minute then wonder why they're stuck.. life and sailing have much in common, prep and and B port if the weather changes.

[B23iL23]

If Brexit is getting you down and you have the option of an Irish passport, it's one way to work around this. Think it's up to 50k issued to UK citizens this year alone.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

If Brexit is getting you down and you have the option of an Irish passport, it's one way to work around this. Think it's up to 50k issued to UK citizens this year alone.

Does this help every Irish citizen??

I have citizenship there. Boat was built in the States. What special advantages are there to Irish citizens?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Does this help every Irish citizen??

I have citizenship there. Boat was built in the States. What special advantages are there to Irish citizens?

They can stay indefinitely in the EU.. if not N Ireland.
Register your boat there and your sorted.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by boatman61

They can stay indefinitely in the EU.. if not N Ireland.
Register your boat there and your sorted.

Absolutely massive tax hit though, right?

The boat I'd plan to take is a flashy looking Catamaran. Looks very expensive and it's a one off.

VAT would probably pay for a year of air bnbs. No way around vat if you're a citizen, right?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Absolutely massive tax hit though, right?

The boat I'd plan to take is a flashy looking Catamaran. Looks very expensive and it's a one off.

VAT would probably pay for a year of air bnbs. No way around vat if you're a citizen, right?

So do what lots of EU and Turk boat owners do and flag it Delaware and play the 18mth game.
Pay the VAT or play the game, its that simple.