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Old 21-05-2013, 15:24   #286
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Here in Panama, I am moored inside Fort Sherman and surrounded by dozens of forts, with Fort San Lorenzo right here, which was the Spanish fort conquered by Henry Morgan himself. Like I said, there is a lot of history everywhere in the world. Europe cradle of European civilization but the Chinese considered them barbarians nonetheless. Just like Romans considered the Gauls and Kelts barbarians who were only just able to communicate amongst themselves. It all depends who wrote the history book you're reading...
New world Nick , only yesterday as far as I'm concerned history wise.

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Old 21-05-2013, 15:25   #287
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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It will be interesting to hear from Cahlgren.
Sorry for the delay
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Old 21-05-2013, 15:27   #288
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Still no ruling from the Customs Agent. My husband flew to Portugal and the agent will not meet with him (plus today was a holiday). He has gotten the EC Commission involved and she says that she is awaiting their ruling and won't meet with him until then. He will go to the customs office tomorrow and personally bring her the ruling from the Commission that the boat, in fact has been out of the EU territorial waters (12 miles out). Plan B (Spain) may still be an option, as there is still no definition for the 'deadline'.

Just to add to all of the confusion, Jersey states that they are out of the VAT zone and count for resetting the VAT clock for non EU boats, the UK states that the Channel Islands are out of the VAT zone and count for resetting the VAT clock, the EU Commission states that the Channel Islands are out of the VAT zone, but DO NOT reset the clock for the Temporary Importation. They state that going 12 miles out of territorial waters is enough (which we have done). We are getting clarification and getting this in writing. I can't imagine any customs agent agreeing to this - how do I prove this to a French Customs agent? Pinky swear?
The directive is clear , you must go outside the customs union of the EU, the channels islands arnt actually in the EU at all.

Who in the Commission is writing to you, that will be a first

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Old 21-05-2013, 15:37   #289
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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The directive is clear , you must go outside the customs union of the EU, the channels islands arnt actually in the EU at all.

Who in the Commission is writing to you, that will be a first

Dave
I'm not naming names yet. I will once every thing is over. I will have this guy on speed dial for every VAT check from this point forward, if we aren't busy high tailing it to Morocco.

From the e-mail:

Boats may be placed under the temporary importation procedure up to 18 months. That customs procedure is usually discharged/ended by the re-export of the boat from the customs territory of the EU. This means that the boat must have left the territorial waters of a Member State of the EU within the 18 months period. Sailing a boat to Jersey without leaving the 12 miles zone does not discharge the temporary admission procedure because the Channel Islands are part of the customs territory of the EU.

European Commission
Taxation and Customs Union
Customs Legislation (unit TAXUD/A/2)
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Old 21-05-2013, 15:52   #290
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I'm not naming names yet. I will once every thing is over. I will have this guy on speed dial for every VAT check from this point forward, if we aren't busy high tailing it to Morocco.

From the e-mail:

Boats may be placed under the temporary importation procedure up to 18 months. That customs procedure is usually discharged/ended by the re-export of the boat from the customs territory of the EU. This means that the boat must have left the territorial waters of a Member State of the EU within the 18 months period. Sailing a boat to Jersey without leaving the 12 miles zone does not discharge the temporary admission procedure because the Channel Islands are part of the customs territory of the EU.

European Commission
Taxation and Customs Union
Customs Legislation (unit TAXUD/A/2)
Yes sorry , wasnt thinking , the Chanel islands by agreement participate in the free movement of goods , so that while outside the vat area , they arnt outside the customs union.

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Old 21-05-2013, 16:00   #291
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

The 12 mile out thing will be much easier. We just need to find a way to prove it We have a SPOT locater that sends us an e-mail of our position. I wonder if that would be official enough?
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Old 21-05-2013, 16:04   #292
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The 12 mile out thing will be much easier. We just need to find a way to prove it We have a SPOT locater that sends us an e-mail of our position. I wonder if that would be official enough?
I would have thought so , yes , I really can't see the Portuguese pushing this much further. Someone has a bee in ones bonnet there and no doubt will eventually get a slap from their superiors or the EU for annoying nice Americans.

Persevere, once they realise your not going to roll over , it will evaporate.

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Old 21-05-2013, 16:21   #293
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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I would have thought so , yes , I really can't see the Portuguese pushing this much further. Someone has a bee in ones bonnet there and no doubt will eventually get a slap from their superiors or the EU for annoying nice Americans.

Persevere, once they realise your not going to roll over , it will evaporate.

Dave
We were going for the slap. We contacted any and every agency we could. The US Embassy's e-mails were getting bounced back. We can only guess that her mailbox was full. Even the local Portuguese Embassy was e-mailing her trying to figure out what she was doing!

We did get a little back story (but not the whole story...yet). She had another boat on the hook for VAT and they just up and left Portugal. After the boat left, she went to the marina and checked on the rest of the boats. It seems like she was grasping at straws to get that missed VAT back. Our boat has been put under the care of the marina. I think she was trying to keep us from running like the last boat.
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Old 21-05-2013, 16:32   #294
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We were going for the slap. We contacted any and every agency we could. The US Embassy's e-mails were getting bounced back. We can only guess that her mailbox was full. Even the local Portuguese Embassy was e-mailing her trying to figure out what she was doing!

We did get a little back story (but not the whole story...yet). She had another boat on the hook for VAT and they just up and left Portugal. After the boat left, she went to the marina and checked on the rest of the boats. It seems like she was grasping at straws to get that missed VAT back. Our boat has been put under the care of the marina. I think she was trying to keep us from running like the last boat.
Yes there's always a back story and its always one or two super obnoxious officials , who in Portugal always seem to be women , for some reason, its compounded by the fact they don't know EU vat directives either. I've run foul my self

There was even nonsense last year of one of those ladies requesting a mobo provide a TIR Carnet ( nothing to do with temporary import relief) , yet anyone in the know know that TIR carnets can't be used for means of transport. That one went away too.

They really are a pain. I wouldn't mind if they knew the rules , but they don't and they are arrogant, unique situation in Europe, not seen elsewhere in my personal experience.

Sounds like you have the troops organised and she's on a poor career advancement path !!

Dave
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Old 21-05-2013, 16:55   #295
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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if you are put off sailing in the EU, do not come...simple like that

personally, I am a lot more happier with less boats around Dubrovnik area.
I hear ya. You could have saved us pages and pages with this thread...

I think it is pretty straightforward for EU folks, hence the swarms in Dubrovnik. Besides Canadians, I don't see many foreigners in our waters, but at least once a season I meet a Brit, S African, Aussie, etc and I'm always happy to see them. We don't make it any easier for visiting cruisers, so you have to respect those that crossed oceans to visit. Or loaded their boat on a ship....

Here's to quiet anchorages, Orlando...
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Old 21-05-2013, 18:55   #296
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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I really hope so...
So why do we see so few American flagged boats across here.. we don't bite.. unless you ask nicely?
That is the exact problem.. you wait for us to ask
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Old 21-05-2013, 21:23   #297
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New world Nick , only yesterday as far as I'm concerned history wise.

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Old 21-05-2013, 22:22   #298
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Maybe, but you can fly to those places, and sail in the islands where there is less hassle.
Funny. That's how we feel about the EU.

(We're doing a couple weeks on the west coast of Scotland this summer.)
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Old 21-05-2013, 23:32   #299
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

The EC has a list here of definitions:
Customs glossary - European commission

And it appears that the "custom territory" appears to include:
"the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man."
So the Channel Islands indeed do not reset the VAT clock...
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Old 22-05-2013, 06:49   #300
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The EC has a list here of definitions:
Customs glossary - European commission

And it appears that the "custom territory" appears to include:
"the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man."
So the Channel Islands indeed do not reset the VAT clock...
So the customs lady was right after all and not just being nasty for the heck of it... and we all thought the Channel Islands would reset the clock and thus were wrong.
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