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Old 01-04-2013, 07:08   #16
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

I would answer,"No, I am not put off," but it does make cruising there less desirable. I disagree that this sounds simple or convenient:

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The EU rules are not that burdensome. It boils down to three things: (a) be careful of local taxes like in Spain where you are hit with a tax bill if you spend more than half a tax year there; (b) be careful of EU VAT rules, and make sure and take your non-EU boat out of the EU every 18 months or however long it is; (c) be careful not to violate the visa rules, or get a long-term visa.
A and C sound pretty normal for most countries, but B is the big Catch 22 for many. Some folks I've known who have done it fairly recently ended up saying if they did it again they would purchase a small, cheap boat and keep it in the EU in order to avoid the hassles of having to get the boat out every 18 months. I've spent a fair bit of time in Europe and I would love to cruise there--plan to do it some day.
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:47   #17
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
I would answer,"No, I am not put off," but it does make cruising there less desirable. I disagree that this sounds simple or convenient:



A and C sound pretty normal for most countries, but B is the big Catch 22 for many. Some folks I've known who have done it fairly recently ended up saying if they did it again they would purchase a small, cheap boat and keep it in the EU in order to avoid the hassles of having to get the boat out every 18 months. I've spent a fair bit of time in Europe and I would love to cruise there--plan to do it some day.
1) EU crew need a visa to enter the US aboard their own boat; US crew does not need a visa to enter the EU aboard their own boat. US is more restrictive.

2) Both come to tax you after 6 months. Here they are equal.

3) An EU boat gets a 12-month federal cruising permit (that overrules any state law) to stay in US waters free of burden. US boats can stay in the EU for 18 months free of burden. US is more restrictive.

=> Facts are that the US is more restrictive to EU cruisers than the other way around. I wonder about the mayhem when the EU would require US citizens to go through a visa process the way the US puts EU citizens through one, let alone the horrendous cost in money and time.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:11   #18
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

[QUOTE=Dockhead;1199619]Europe is a big place, so you can't make a generalization like "very expensive . . . limited anchoring . . ."



I think there is some misunderstanding about the rules for foreigners cruising in the US.
US visa requirements are the same regardless of the means of conveyance. Eg, us Canadians can be in the US for up to 26 weeks in a year without a visa, regardless how we travel there. If you are from a country which the US requires a visa to fly there for a vacation, then you will also need a visa to travel there in your own boat. Working in the US is a whole other matter, but I am assuming that this tread is about foreigners vacationing in the US.

A foreign registered boat requires a cruising permit. This is a document that is good for the entire US. There is no such thing as a state cruising permit. The cruising permit is good for about one year, and cannot be renewed unless the boat has been out of the US for at least 15 days.

There is no VAT in the US. States set their own tax rate which means that each state is different, and some (eg: Delaware, New Hampshire, and a few others) have no sales tax at all. Each state has rules about how long a boat can be in that state without paying state tax, but this is more intended to catch local residents trying to cheat the system, than to tax legitimate tourists.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:31   #19
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Add to this the 5%-8% monetary loss in every financial exchange via the banking fees (credit card fees, currency exchange fees, etc) plus the European winter weather and I think we've summed up the reasons why so few visit.

It's too bad, because there is so much to see.

WHat A myopic view

If you want a warm winter to lay over, sail down to the Canaries, or even the ALgarve in Portugal, Ive sat on the beaches in January in Portugal.

As to exchange rates , well that happens to everyone. whats thats got to do with it. ( you think I dont suffer conversion losses every-time I go to the states and buy things) Other just stay at home.

The Med is the cradle of the world, one of most fascinating places to cruise and home to the best culture, food and history the world over. Ive tied to bollards that Roman slave ships used in Turkey etc. You are sailing in the most maritime of areas the world has ever seen.

As to rules and regs , Just exactly rules are you talking about . Remember the EU is progressing to a federalised state, Hence you must treat it "increasing" as one jurisdiction.

I get 90 days when I enter the US, you get 90days when you enter the EU. Simple, whats complicated is people looking to duck and dive and find loopholes

THere is far far more crusing hassle in the US for a foreigner , and this in my experience is becuase, virtually no-one, except Canadians visit the US by sailing boat. ( anyway the US is not a sailing boat country). Europe and the Med in particular is a sailing centre, the biggest in the world ( thats why we dominate the sailboat market) and there are very few rules and even those are lax.

Please don't promulgate incorrect, mis-leading and biased "pseudo-facts" about what is arguably an unmissable sailing area, and I would argue one of the most interesting in the world, if not THE most interesting

Dave
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:34   #20
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

[QUOTE=Rick R;1199771]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Europe is a big place, so you can't make a generalization like "very expensive . . . limited anchoring . . ."



I think there is some misunderstanding about the rules for foreigners cruising in the US.
US visa requirements are the same regardless of the means of conveyance. Eg, us Canadians can be in the US for up to 26 weeks in a year without a visa, regardless how we travel there. If you are from a country which the US requires a visa to fly there for a vacation, then you will also need a visa to travel there in your own boat. Working in the US is a whole other matter, but I am assuming that this tread is about foreigners vacationing in the US.

A foreign registered boat requires a cruising permit. This is a document that is good for the entire US. There is no such thing as a state cruising permit. The cruising permit is good for about one year, and cannot be renewed unless the boat has been out of the US for at least 15 days.

There is no VAT in the US. States set their own tax rate which means that each state is different, and some (eg: Delaware, New Hampshire, and a few others) have no sales tax at all. Each state has rules about how long a boat can be in that state without paying state tax, but this is more intended to catch local residents trying to cheat the system, than to tax legitimate tourists.
Maybe for Canadians, S/V Jedi has it exactly right for us foreigners, the US is a very restrictive place to cruise for a foreigner.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:41   #21
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

Quote:
I would answer,"No, I am not put off," but it does make cruising there less desirable. I disagree that this sounds simple or convenient:

Quote:
The EU rules are not that burdensome. It boils down to three things: (a) be careful of local taxes like in Spain where you are hit with a tax bill if you spend more than half a tax year there; (b) be careful of EU VAT rules, and make sure and take your non-EU boat out of the EU every 18 months or however long it is; (c) be careful not to violate the visa rules, or get a long-term visa.
A and C sound pretty normal for most countries, but B is the big Catch 22 for many. Some folks I've known who have done it fairly recently ended up saying if they did it again they would purchase a small, cheap boat and keep it in the EU in order to avoid the hassles of having to get the boat out every 18 months. I've spent a fair bit of time in Europe and I would love to cruise there--plan to do it some day.

Look lets put the VAT to bed once and for all, You get 18 months without any need for application.

In practice VAT inspection is solely foscued on EU citizens, The port authorities of teh vast majority of EU countries couldnt care a damm about a US boat , no matter how long it stays, I know people with boats in Palma, non EU and they are there 10 years. WHy, because NO ONE CARES. Even if your are challenged, you can just claim you hve been out of the EU in the last 18 months. AGain show me a first hand account of VAT issues , Ive yet to hear one first hand ( that didnt have other illegal issues !)

Every now and again people come on about VAT . SHVAT, SmaVAT, etc

Just forget about it ,, it isnt an issue. Once your not a tax resident thats the end of it.

Jeepers , I get a pain from this...

Other then that (a) above is just plain wrong, Loads of countries have specific rules and taxes that apply to residents ( The US has an armful), so just dont become a resident and there are NO taxes that apply.

Stop making mountains out of molehills,

DAve
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:44   #22
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

Mind you , its a peculiar mentality that people think they should sail into the EU and stay as long as they like, "D-day" was some time ago now folks.

The Greater EFFTA is the wealthiest area on the planet, its a target for massive illegal immigration ( just like the US is) , it is forced to police its "external borders" increasingly as it has no movement controls internally anymore.

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Old 04-04-2013, 05:06   #23
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

One of the bores cruising in the USA as a "transient alien" is having to telephone the US Customs every time one moves anchorage, marina etc. They never want to know when you leave, just when you arrive!

Invariably you have to explain the procedure to the droid/bimbo on the end of the phone. We got rebuked for not calling in whilst anchored in Pamlico Sound, the officer didn't belive that there were places with no cell phone signal.

Still love sailing in the US and looking forward to returning soon.
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Old 06-04-2013, 13:12   #24
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by Rick R View Post
I think there is some misunderstanding about the rules for foreigners cruising in the US.
US visa requirements are the same regardless of the means of conveyance.

Rick, I have to correct you since the misunderstanding seems to be in your interpretation. For all nationals of countries who can fly into the USA using the Visa Waiver Program without a visa there is a very stringent requirement for a visa when entering the USA by private vessel.

Instead of going into detail, I'll just post an excerpt from one of many us.gov pages (in this case a sample US embassy page at Visa Faqs | Embassy of the United States)

Quote:
I am entering the United States on a private yacht; do I qualify for visa free travel?

No. If you are entering the U.S. on a private yacht, you will require a visa.
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Old 06-04-2013, 14:14   #25
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

I thought the question was about what people thought of the hassles of sailing in the EU, and that is what I answered. Yes, we understand there are hassles everywhere, but the specific question was about the EU for boaters not from the EU.
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Old 06-04-2013, 14:18   #26
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pirate Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by sestina View Post
One of the bores cruising in the USA as a "transient alien" is having to telephone the US Customs every time one moves anchorage, marina etc. They never want to know when you leave, just when you arrive!

Invariably you have to explain the procedure to the droid/bimbo on the end of the phone. We got rebuked for not calling in whilst anchored in Pamlico Sound, the officer didn't belive that there were places with no cell phone signal.

Still love sailing in the US and looking forward to returning soon.
Shoot... you guys musta been caught on a "I'm bored lets go hassle someone" day..
My time there I could not even raise the CG on Ch16.. or 14 or 12.. or anything else... as for Customs/Immigration/HS... you'll find em in their office or the airport...
In all the time I've spent there been boarded once and that was last year heading outa Ft Pierce when we got jumped on at the 3miles limit on a test run after doing a few jobs on the boat.. saved going back in to clear out,,
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Old 06-04-2013, 14:35   #27
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post

1) EU crew need a visa to enter the US aboard their own boat; US crew does not need a visa to enter the EU aboard their own boat. US is more restrictive.

2) Both come to tax you after 6 months. Here they are equal.

3) An EU boat gets a 12-month federal cruising permit (that overrules any state law) to stay in US waters free of burden. US boats can stay in the EU for 18 months free of burden. US is more restrictive.
This pretty much sums it all up and puts things in context. From the rules/restrictions point of view, and without distracting with tax rates and currency exchange details, from the most to least restrictive and/or cumbersome: USA, Canada, EU ... based on my personal experience.
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Old 06-04-2013, 15:52   #28
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

About the non-US folk from visa-waived countries needing a visa before arrival on their EU registered yacht...

My German wife acquired her new passport on schedule, and we subsequently sailed to the USA without knowing that quirk about the visa - pretty much thinking automatic 90 day tourist visa upon arrival. Oops.

Bit of a chat with Customs & Immigration. Pull out the old passport. Turns out that the US 10-year visa (in the expired passport) still had some years left upon it. US officials accepted that, stamped the new passport, and permitted entry.

An example of where officials respond in kind to the attitude presented.

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Old 06-04-2013, 16:32   #29
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Re: Are you put off sailing in the EU?

have crossed into the states many many times some hasltles along the way have been arrested over the phone a couple of times mostly just a phone call and a good laugh. More hastle coming back into Canada. Sailed to europe last year (Ireland) It took two days to find customs and now on first name basis with some of them! Vat no hastles seems I can stay as long as we want. we're not a problem for them they're too busy to be or have a desire to be a problem for them. So think a smile and good attitude and Bobs your uncle unless of course he isn't and then your on your own!
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Old 07-04-2013, 05:17   #30
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Having just arrived into Med on non-EU boat with all non-EU nationals here's what I find bothersome:

1. 90 days in 180 and no easy way to extend this - Spain, France, and Italy deserve more than 90 days in a year. Why in a year? We'll cruise for these 90 days, then off to the Balkans or Turkey. End of 180 days for us is in September and by that time sail back to France just to leave again in time for winter? Maybe we haven't thought this through enough yet...

2. We fly on business and to visit relatives, so having to bully passport stamps out of officials actually works against us in this case.
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