Are you put off sailing in the EU?

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Don L

I'm feeling all put off again. This whole 90 day deal is crap when you are talking multiple countries. Talk about a system that just seems to be saying to vistors/tourists "it was nice meeting you, now get the hell out!"

Aren't most countries like that? The US included?

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Don L

I'm feeling all put off again. This whole 90 day deal is crap when you are talking multiple countries. Talk about a system that just seems to be saying to vistors/tourists "it was nice meeting you, now get the hell out!"

Pretty much - and I think intended that way . EU has 500 million people already, a few folks on boats is neither here nor there.

If someone is in the EU on a schengen visa then they won't become tax resident accidently, simply because they won't be able to stay in anyone country long enough (likely if it was 6 months then most folks who would use it would be staying in only one country).....makes life easier for all concerned, just inconveniant for a few.

Everyone seems to have different ideas of what a visitor / tourist is (mostly wrapped around what is conveniant to them!) - but a 90 day vacation is gonna cover 99% of folks who are genuine tourists. For others their is the option of becoming residents (including for tax - kerching $$$ ), countries don't run on fresh air or on simply the VAT receipts from beer.........

[goboatingnow]

With your American flag, I'm pretty sure you will find smiles and friendly people in Turkey, Lebanon, Gibraltar and Morocco as of the current political situation. I do agree that the EU became a monster that needs to crash and rise in a much smaller version, but the countries I listed here won't be part of the EU anytime soon. And they are stunning, well except for Gibraltar

Nick when you get back to living here again, Id respect your views, right now the EU is a reasonable approach to a difficult problem. Its of course not without significant problems, but nobody said this would be easy.


Remember folks if you pick the time lines can stay for 170-180 days in the Schengen visa, with one small in/out in between.

No-one argues that the 90 day visa isnt a problem for cruising, and the issue needs to be highlighted to the EU commission. so get your Senators and Congressmen writing.

Unfortunately this issue affects so few people, that is hard to see anything changing.

The other way to get movement , is to advocate that the US consider relaxing rules on its visiting foreign cruisers and making that a proviso that the EU do something similar.

The Schengen 90 days limit was a direct response to issues the US had with visas to some countries in the EU.

But I think we all agree that a long term tourist visa, that could be applied to in advance , would be a solution , I wouldnt hold my breath though

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Both correct ... but not well explained. If one with US and EU citizenship would stay long enough in his EU country of citizenship (or anywhere in EU ... not sure?), one would become resident of EU country from taxation point of view.

Just a point, tax residency is on a country by country basis, no EU wide tax residency ( well not yet anyway, ask me again next year !!).


The fact is folks, the intention of the EU , and expecially the Eurozone, will now be to proceed to further integration, there isnt really any other option, the economies are too tightly bound together to go back now. So increasing you have to view the EU and especially the Eurozone as just like the US, with states having local laws but an overarching Federal system.

Hence the view that the EU is a collection of countries will give way to the idea that they are a series of semi autonomous regions. In this progression we have some very serious democratic deficiencies ( Demrocracy being a somewhat uncomfortable fit with many European rulers!) , these need to be fixed , unfortunately longer time limits for cruisers may be a little down teh agenda

Dave

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Nick when you get back to living here again, Id respect your views, right now the EU is a reasonable approach to a difficult problem. Its of course not without significant problems, but nobody said this would be easy.

What does that mean? You don't respect my views just because I chose to live aboard my boat?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

What does that mean? You don't respect my views just because I chose to live aboard my boat?

Ill always respect you in the morning , Nick !!

what I mean is to throw stones you need to live in the glasshouse

Dave

[svBeBe]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Aren't most countries like that? The US included?

The US is ONE country. The Schengen Treaty covers multiple countries. Imagine how Europeans would like it if the USA signed an agreement with 22 other countries that then limited their travel to all those countries combined to only 90 days. And BTW there is a process available to obtain an extended visa to the USA; there is not a process available to obtain an extended Schengen visa. I would be happy to pay a hefty fee and do all the paperwork if it were possible to obtain an extended Schengen visa.

On another note, I mentioned earlier in this thread that we spend over 60k USA annually cruising and that 95% of that is spent locally. Someone pointed out that many people make much more than that in countries in the EU countries in the Med. There is a difference in the effect to the local economy. People who are working and earning in an area are circulating the same money through that local economy. Tourists like us are bringing in new money to that local economy. We are taking roughly 57k USD out of the USA and spending that locally in whatever country we are cruising; infusing more money into the local economy than someone who is working there or a local person who is retired there and spending his pension or savings. A cruiser on a yacht berthed in a marina has the same tax effect as a local person living in a rental flat or home; except we are removing money from our home country and putting new money into that local economy. Eventually the USA might wise up and begin requiring citizens to live within the USA in order to collect our Social Security or withdraw from our IRAs and 401k (pensions). But until that happens we will continue to infuse money into foreign locations.

Judy

[svBeBe]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Not sure how "off limits" all of North Africa is at the moment - but if Tunisia at least is in the game then not really a massive problem (albeit still a PITA).......and once Libya settles down a bit that will really open up options.

Tunisia is definitely "off limits" now. The US State Dept warns Americans not to travel to Tunisia, including the northern area which was previously considered "safe". Libya is out; Algeria is out; and troubles are growing in Morocco. Nope; this is not doable in today's political climate for Americans. The northern coast of Africa is basically a "no-go" area for us at this time. We would not berth our boat in Morocco for 5-6 months over winter because there would be the possibility of being forced to set to sea during winter because of the political situation there. I've seen winter in the Med; it is not weather in which we would want to be at sea.

This 90-day limit is a real problem for foreign sailors.

Judy

[letsgetsailing3]

I sympathize with svBeBe, but in the big scheme of things, $60K per year (how is that even possible in Turkey?) isn't worth rewriting all the EU immigration laws. Do you know what it costs to write legislation? Hint: $60K per year isn't enough. Any legislation you created for cruisers would be exploited by whoever could use it to immigrate illegally and get free healthcare and other benefits, for example.

Oh, and you bring up a good point about your not paying taxes in the U.S. As a taxpayer, I object. (Not really.)

For your situation, couldn't you try and get a visa in any EU member country for a year, and be covered that way? I'm not sure how that would work for a cruiser with no fixed address. It becomes a thorny issue.

[Zanshin]

SvBeBe - you see fit to winge about the visa restrictions for travel in the EU; yet refuse to countenance other viewpoints, particularly for foreigners in the USA.

Just to put it in perspective - a rhumb line from Athens to Gibraltar is only about 100 miles longer than the rhumb line from Maine to Florida; yet you have repeatedly stated that this is impossible to do in the time constraints you have, but gloss over arguments that show it is the same when doing non-americans try cruising the eastern seaboard.

The restrictions imposed upon non-eu cruisers in the EU are significantly less than those imposed on non-US cruisers in the USA; so arguments about how-tough-it-is-in-the-EU will fall upon deaf (foreign) ears.

[sailorboy1]

the thread is about cruising the EU, cruising the USA is a different topic; please feel free start one (cruising the EU is of interest to people other than EU or USA)

I doubt the treaty will get changed. But I just can not see why Italy would care about me spending 90-days cruising there just because I had just spent 90-days cruising France. This to me me is the mystery. if a country wants to limit my time there that is their right, but applying that to a different country is just a really weird.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Don L

the thread is about cruising the EU, cruising the USA is a different topic; please feel free start one (cruising the EU is of interest to people other than EU or USA)

I doubt the treaty will get changed. But I just can not see why Italy would care about me spending 90-days cruising there just because I had just spent 90-days cruising France. This to me me is the mystery. if a country wants to limit my time there that is their right, but applying that to a different country is just a really weird.

If I fly into NY with a 90 day visa I can just drive into Vermont or Virginia and have 90 days there... then PA.. NC.. SC...
****... so many fresh starts....
Why go home...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by boatman61

If I fly into NY with a 90 day visa I can just drive into Vermont or Virginia and have 90 days there... then PA.. NC.. SC...
****... so many fresh starts....
Why go home...

Buga.... just found out they've taken up the EU nightmare...
Federalism...

[Richard_W]

This starts to sound more funny with every post ... "oh poor me me me".
Some comments >>> inline below:

Originally Posted by svBeBe

The US is ONE country.

>>> ... and 50 states whose vastly uncoordinated rules and regulations make visitor's heads spin.

The Schengen Treaty covers multiple countries. Imagine how Europeans would like it if the USA signed an agreement with 22 other countries that then limited their travel to all those countries combined to only 90 days.

>>> It would be nice so ALL EU residents are treated the same way, now some residents of the EU need visa some not, and whatever visa/permit duration they get is for all 50 states (a big country, isn't it?), not just 22 countries.

And BTW there is a process available to obtain an extended visa to the USA; there is not a process available to obtain an extended Schengen visa. I would be happy to pay a hefty fee and do all the paperwork if it were possible to obtain an extended Schengen visa.

>>> There are ways for you to get an extended stay visa, but it is a process and requires commitment. It varies slightly from country to country but usually starts with a few 90 days stays, then can be extended to 1 year, then to 3 years, then 5 ... again, it requires planning and commitment. Also see one below ...

On another note, I mentioned earlier in this thread that we spend over 60k USA annually cruising and that 95% of that is spent locally. Someone pointed out that many people make much more than that in countries in the EU countries in the Med. There is a difference in the effect to the local economy. People who are working and earning in an area are circulating the same money through that local economy ...

>>> The EU immigration policies are not designed to accommodate a few thousand sailing Americans, they have a much broader problems to deal with ... a few hundred thousand boats coming from Africa and Asia for example.

Eventually the USA might wise up and begin requiring citizens to live within the USA in order to collect our Social Security or withdraw from our IRAs and 401k (pensions). But until that happens we will continue to infuse money into foreign locations.

>>> Easy here ... Social Security is a benefit managed by government that I paid for in my taxes. Not same as the IRA and 401k that is MY money paid from MY salary and work compensation to MY private account(s).

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by svBeBe

The US is ONE country. The Schengen Treaty covers multiple countries. Imagine how Europeans would like it if the USA signed an agreement with 22 other countries that then limited their travel to all those countries combined to only 90 days.

The US did just that. Granted, they started with 13 countries, but then the EU started with only 6 countries...