Are you put off sailing in the EU?

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by cheoah

Right now I'm thinking June; NC to BErmuda, then Azores, then wherever the wind takes me quickest from there, with Portugal, N Spain and Atlantic France all options before heading into the Med for winter. Northern Europe will have to wait for now. Frankly I'm really excited about the Azores. Someone gave me Slocums book when I first discovered sailing and I've always wanted to visit. Surely they do some interesting things with meat and food, and Falo Portugues (de brasil), or rather Spanuguese now.

How about coming home? Canaries to the Caribbean in spring? Should I just overwinter in the Canaries? Can I?

I would suggest you get Jimmy Cornell's "World Cruising Routes" book.

The Azores are unbelievably beautiful. It's like they mixed Hawaii and Ireland together.

[sestina]

The VAT clock can be reset in Gibraltar, Croatia and the Channel Islands. Dunno about Helgoland.

Not everywhere is in the EU.

[goboatingnow]

couple of things

It's up to you ... your choice. Either you claim to be US resident and abide by 18 months rule, or pay VAT as any Italian resident would, and stay as long as you wish. Can't be one or another depending on the day, situation, VAT/Tax obligations.

No not true, The fact you have a passport does not mean you are a resident. Once you can show you live in the US and not italy , then you are entitled to the 18 month VAT relief.

How about coming home? Canaries to the Caribbean in spring? Should I just overwinter in the Canaries? Can I? That means I'd miss Italy though, an important stop for my work. I made a friend in St Simons, GA who was from the Canaries. He sailed his Pearson Triton from there to the Canaries via Bermuda. Would be good to catch up with him.

Overwintering in the Canaries, is entirely possible, though for a atlantic crossing your only going to be staying for a proportion of the winter. Winter in Italy is quite cold and nasty at times, the Canaries are much nicer, albeit they have all the disadvantages culturally of islands. Food is good and cheap, Marinas have unfortunately increased their costs quite substantially there in my experience. Wouldn't agree about the tourist bit, The canaries handles its tourists quite handily, you can go ( since you have a boat , remember)to the less travelled islands in the chain, like Gomera, for example.

Italy much be nicer as for a "foodie" and a cultural place to stay over winter, however.

I realize that diesel will be 30-40% more than in the U.S, but I'm really more concerned about berthing costs. I understand that the drill is to "Med moor" with the fishing boats, but suppose there isn't room? I don't want to pay 80-90 Euros a night to back up against a seawall arse first. I'd rather have a U.S.- style mooring ball or the ability to anchor out.

If the marina charges in the Med are as high as some of the charges in Florida (or on the South coast of Cape Cod for that matter) then I may just go to the Bahamas or the Southern Carribean instead.

You will not find "med mooring with fishing boats" to be a common experience, especially in the Western Med, ( ie east of Croatia). It is more common in Northern Europe, or Atlantic France, there actually being fishing fleets there to begin with.

Certainly in most of Spain, Portugal, France, Italy and parts of Croatia, you will end up in a Marina if you want land access. Mooring fields are rare, anchoring is still relatively available, though in france the restrictions on swimming areas has pushed anchoring further out.

The "Arse up to a seawall" is more a Greece, Turkey feature. though even here, marinas are spouting up.

Berthing Costs, in the med, are as stated around 40-70 euros a night for an average cruising boat ( high season). You can get cheaper, but its takes time to search out.

Given the demand on berths , this situation is not going to change any day now, and with significant EU restrictions on coastal developments, the heyday of marinas building is probably over, certainly in the western Med.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by sestina

The VAT clock can be reset in Gibraltar, Croatia and the Channel Islands. Dunno about Helgoland.

Not everywhere is in the EU.

Just to be clear, The EU Directive does not specify any time period, merely that the boat must be removed from the Custom Union Territory of the EU. In reality merely sailing over this line is sufficient. The reality is you will never be asked and no one cares. I would not recommend you take ANY specific voyage to "reset" anything.

Dave

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

couple of things
The "Arse up to a seawall" is more a Greece, Turkey feature. though even here, marinas are spouting up.
Dave

Actually 'Arse up to a seawall/pontoon... no fingers... is the norm... alongside is the exception in the Med as shown below... one can make so much more profit...

[boatman61]

Greece... stopped for a few nights in places like these.. no charge.. no hassle...

[monte]

Great Info, especially from goatboating who I have learned to trust when it comes to stuff. In answer to Nos's original question, yes it is a pain in the ass to cruise Europe, although not as much as I expected.
Im pleased to read that taking your yacht offshore 12 miles is out of the EU, I was anticipating having to call into Croatia before July to ensure the VAT deal, but now it seems I can take my time as we have been 50M offshore in Biscay and the Med.
The biggest PITA though is the 90 day thing which I cant understand the logic of. Don;t tourist bring money...usually? What happened to the days of renting or buying a Kombi and travelling around Europe for a year? Pretty difficult now. As an Australian I thought I was practically European anyway :P
So I avoid the shengen bs by getting a 12 month French Visa but that doesn't really help a lot. In Portugal the nice customs guy did let me know I only had a few weeks left in Shengan land but he did say if I want an extension it isnt hard.
Not sure about going to Gibraltar helping with the VAT status as someone mentioned? Its part of the EU.
Also good to read that although Croatia is becoming EU in July , it isn;t becoming shengen till 2015? Is that correct. If s thats great news as well as while we are in Croatia this year the clock will be winding backwards for me.
Note regarding the customs officials, we were boarded (usually in marinas) 4 or 5 times in Atlantic Spain and they were always cool, just checked the paperwork and filled in the form. They were just like trying to fill in their day and keep the boss happy. In Portugal and the Med, never boarded in marinas or at anchor.
So yeah it can seem like a pain but in reality it aint. In a couple of weeks we will be heading from Barcelona to Corsica, Sardinia, Italy then Croatia for the rest of the year by the sounds of things. Hope to see some of you there!

*reading palarran's blog now to see whats in store for us*
funny about the anchoring and having to relocate fast with the dinghy on the painter, Ive done that as well and now always lift the dinghy while I can, it's bloody hard with a bit of chop, especially in the dark when you have other things to do!

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

I don't know about Italian passports, but my Belgian passport does mention that it has been issued by the consulate in Bern... Might be the same with Italian passports.

Passports tell you where they were issued, but that has nothing to do with residency.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Passports tell you where they were issued, but that has nothing to do with residency.

My Dutch passport (which should be the same as every other EU passport?!) does not have an address in it. I still need my previous passport because it holds my US visa that is still valid and that one doesn't have an address in it either. The old one was issued by the Dutch governor in Curacao and the new one was issued by the Dutch ambassador in Washington DC so that is just where I happened to be when renewing, not a sign of residency, although Dutch tourists in the US can't get their passport renewed there so it does say I'm not a resident of Holland anymore.

But, when they swipe the passport at any immigration terminal, it comes up with all that info that they don't want to show you. When we renewed our passports in Curacao, the governor's assistant told me that my address was registered to another person with the same last name but different initials. I explained that this was my father and that we live on our boat. She then proceeded to change the address to "aboard s/v Jedi" so that is how it shows up now

[svBeBe]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't know anyone who has been put off cruising in Europe by that.

There is red tape virtually everywhere you cruise.

The EU rules are not that burdensome. It boils down to three things: (a) be careful of local taxes like in Spain where you are hit with a tax bill if you spend more than half a tax year there; (b) be careful of EU VAT rules, and make sure and take your non-EU boat out of the EU every 18 months or however long it is; (c) be careful not to violate the visa rules, or get a long-term visa.

That's it and you're done. Where else is so very much easier than that?

If you do as I did and buy your boat in the EU, and keep her flagged there, then it's even much easier. Then the only thing you have to worry about is your visa. In the UK there are no taxes whatsoever on boats (once the initial VAT is paid).

We are put off cruising EU waters because of the 90-day limit. Being on a slow sailboat combined with the turbulent Med winters make it impossible (yes; impossible) to adhere to the 90-in/90-out requirements. And obtaining a long-stay visa for a specific country has proven impossible; we have tried.

VAT rules are not an issue. It is easy to meet the VAT requirements. It is strictly the 90-in/90-out rule that has caused us to decide to hurry out of the Med. That is the reason we have stayed in the Greece/Turkey/TRNC region for the past 2 years --- because long-stay visas are easily obtained in Turkey.

Once we leave Turkey it will be very stressful meeting the Schengen rules; and costly. No matter how we play it, we will be required to leave our boat in some country while we fly back to the USA for the required 90-days out. That is expensive, especially for many of us who live full-time on our boats and do not have dirt dwellings. Also, again because of the winters in the Med, that 90-days out in reality means more like 6-months out; returning in late spring to begin sailing westward again.

We have no problem with red tape. We are accustomed to dealing with red tape. Dealing with the Schengen limitations is impossible. For that reason we will be leaving the Med rather than staying for several years. FWIW, we have spent over 60k USD annually each year that we have been cruising (completing 7th year in a few weeks) and 95% of that is spent in local areas wherever we happen to be. With the horrible economies in Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal, it would be logical that those countries would welcome foreign sailors like us to infuse more money into their local economies. Instead, we are rushed away. Makes no sense.

So, to answer the OP question; YES; this American couple is put off sailing in the EU and would love to see the rules changed to allow for a 12-month multi-entry visa for Schengen countries. Fat chance that will every happen.

Judy

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

I don't know about Italian passports, but my Belgian passport does mention that it has been issued by the consulate in Bern... Might be the same with Italian passports.

That might mean you live in Switzerland - but it might not, albeit if that is the case then certainly one of those "every little helps" indicators.

I had a British passport that said it was issued by the Embassy in Bangkok and I wasn't a resident in Thailand (extended vacation - back in the days when you could send yer passport off to the border for a Visa run to stamp me over the border and back in.........from the comfort of my bar stool in Bangkok ).

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by svBeBe

So, to answer the OP question; YES; this American couple is put off sailing in the EU and would love to see the rules changed to allow for a 12-month multi-entry visa for Schengen countries. Fat chance that will every happen.

Judy

Leaving aside that your $60k a year spend is likely not typical for a cruising boat - EU not short of folks who spend that sum every year as part of simply earning and living. and they pay tax . Obviously also lots of folks on way less, but even they collectively spend more than you.

Hard truth is that your spend is simply not important and the segment as a whole is not commercially worthwhile to write new rules for and then administer (don't get much officialdom for $60k, let alone on the tax take from that spend).

Obviously in your case a PITA, but clearly not the EOTW . But lots of other places have PITA visa rules as well ........such is life.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by svBeBe

We are put off cruising EU waters because of the 90-day limit. Being on a slow sailboat combined with the turbulent Med winters make it impossible (yes; impossible) to adhere to the 90-in/90-out requirements. And obtaining a long-stay visa for a specific country has proven impossible; we have tried.

VAT rules are not an issue. It is easy to meet the VAT requirements. It is strictly the 90-in/90-out rule that has caused us to decide to hurry out of the Med. That is the reason we have stayed in the Greece/Turkey/TRNC region for the past 2 years --- because long-stay visas are easily obtained in Turkey.

Once we leave Turkey it will be very stressful meeting the Schengen rules; and costly. No matter how we play it, we will be required to leave our boat in some country while we fly back to the USA for the required 90-days out. That is expensive, especially for many of us who live full-time on our boats and do not have dirt dwellings. Also, again because of the winters in the Med, that 90-days out in reality means more like 6-months out; returning in late spring to begin sailing westward again.

We have no problem with red tape. We are accustomed to dealing with red tape. Dealing with the Schengen limitations is impossible. For that reason we will be leaving the Med rather than staying for several years. FWIW, we have spent over 60k USD annually each year that we have been cruising (completing 7th year in a few weeks) and 95% of that is spent in local areas wherever we happen to be. With the horrible economies in Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal, it would be logical that those countries would welcome foreign sailors like us to infuse more money into their local economies. Instead, we are rushed away. Makes no sense.

So, to answer the OP question; YES; this American couple is put off sailing in the EU and would love to see the rules changed to allow for a 12-month multi-entry visa for Schengen countries. Fat chance that will every happen.

Judy

No offense Judy... but did you say this is your 7th year in the Med...?
Could not have been that bad or you'd have left before then.. wouldn't you...

[Richard_W]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Alas, with dual residency, you can.

That's true ...

In appropriate circumstances, one can claim two residencies and fill in tax statements in both countries, claim any foreign tax credit and other deductions related to dual residency. Overall, this does not work too well ... there is always a tax leak somewhere and one ends up paying more than in one of either residence countries.

With dual citizenship one can be selective and claim appropriate citizenship for the situation. Once it comes to a particular matter in one jurisdiction, one has to be consistent ... or, will be writing a new topic like this one ...

[Katiusha]

Originally Posted by monte

Great Info, especially from goatboating who I have learned to trust when it comes to stuff. In answer to Nos's original question, yes it is a pain in the ass to cruise Europe, although not as much as I expected.
Im pleased to read that taking your yacht offshore 12 miles is out of the EU, I was anticipating having to call into Croatia before July to ensure the VAT deal, but now it seems I can take my time as we have been 50M offshore in Biscay and the Med.
The biggest PITA though is the 90 day thing which I cant understand the logic of. Don;t tourist bring money...usually? What happened to the days of renting or buying a Kombi and travelling around Europe for a year? Pretty difficult now. As an Australian I thought I was practically European anyway :P
So I avoid the shengen bs by getting a 12 month French Visa but that doesn't really help a lot. In Portugal the nice customs guy did let me know I only had a few weeks left in Shengan land but he did say if I want an extension it isnt hard.
Not sure about going to Gibraltar helping with the VAT status as someone mentioned? Its part of the EU.
Also good to read that although Croatia is becoming EU in July , it isn;t becoming shengen till 2015? Is that correct. If s thats great news as well as while we are in Croatia this year the clock will be winding backwards for me.
Note regarding the customs officials, we were boarded (usually in marinas) 4 or 5 times in Atlantic Spain and they were always cool, just checked the paperwork and filled in the form. They were just like trying to fill in their day and keep the boss happy. In Portugal and the Med, never boarded in marinas or at anchor.
So yeah it can seem like a pain but in reality it aint. In a couple of weeks we will be heading from Barcelona to Corsica, Sardinia, Italy then Croatia for the rest of the year by the sounds of things. Hope to see some of you there!

*reading palarran's blog now to see whats in store for us*
funny about the anchoring and having to relocate fast with the dinghy on the painter, Ive done that as well and now always lift the dinghy while I can, it's bloody hard with a bit of chop, especially in the dark when you have other things to do!

Gibraltar is not part of EU VAT area - that's why you see a lot of mega yachts registered there. Info about Croatia joining Schengen in 2015 is from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area but I'm sure you can find other sources as well.