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Old 24-03-2014, 16:13   #46
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Re: Are these issues you would avoid on this boat?

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Just to add to the displacement discussion: that displacement # may be the designed one, but it could be (could be, not IS) that it may not include all the wood that was built inside. Wood's klnda heavy...
Displacement is the amount of water it displaces, not the weight of the boat.

Hull weight + interior components + crew + supplies must be < displacement else it sinks.
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Old 24-03-2014, 16:44   #47
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Are these issues you would avoid on this boat?

Assuming the boats not grounded or on plane or something, weight = displacement

On edit, unless your a submarine
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Old 24-03-2014, 16:54   #48
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Re: Are these issues you would avoid on this boat?

It will only displace the equivalent weight of water to it's weight right?
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Old 24-03-2014, 17:07   #49
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Re: Are these issues you would avoid on this boat?

Broker heard the wife and I were down there yesterday snooping around. Called me today and asked if I had any questions. I told her I sought counsel with my very knowledgeable friends (all of you). Told her of the concerns that were pointed out. So here is the scoop as my broker has told me. An amazing carpenter wanted to build a boat. He bought the hull and completed the boat. Not much of a sailor but really wanted to do this project. Original Westerbeke and those are the original hours. She is a fresh water boat except for one trip from Portland to Astoria. Owner has passed away and his son is selling her. You guys were spot on with your advice. I think a couple of you said it looked like a great craftsman built the boat but not a craftsman/builder (nailed it). She also said there has been a lot of interest in the boat but people keep telling her they think she is to heavy and would be tender or be prone to unfavorable motion. She commented that these boats are compared by others to the West Sails. Some people love West Sails and some don't. Could it be numbers aren't everything or are West Sails plagued with similar issues the numbers say this boat should suffer from? Can the numbers be misleading?
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Old 24-03-2014, 17:16   #50
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Re: Are these issues you would avoid on this boat?

Numbers arent everything. People love their Westsails. Every boat is a compromise, you get used to what you have. However... dont yell at me if you want to sail to weather in light air and it wont go! haha. The Hans Christian in my Avatar was a PIG. Frankly... some poeple (like me) turn on t he engine at less than 3.5-4 knots. It aint about any predetermined ability to be a sailor's sailor to me... it's about getting from point A to Point B. I might be more concerned about tenderness than weight for cruising. But a light boat can be more fun to sail for sure.
Another caution, unused boats with lw hours can sometimes be a PITA. Nothing's worse for the mechanicals on a boat then not running the engine gear etc.
The other thing is,a Westsail would be more re-sellable than an unknown boat. If you want it offer them $15k and see what happens!
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Old 24-03-2014, 17:26   #51
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Re: Are these issues you would avoid on this boat?

Most likely I will debate this boat until something better comes along and then buy it All jokes aside, I think this one is better suited for a more knowledgeable sailor than I. I agree, those moving parts have been sitting for a long time and the outside of her does not look like the inside. Someone will get a great buy on her and I will be happy as long as she doesn't sit in her slip and slowly rot away.
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Old 24-03-2014, 17:29   #52
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Re: Are these issues you would avoid on this boat?

Another thing that should be mentioned is you need to find out how the boat is on the water. It's a bit of an unknown and design mistakes DO happen. Any info on owners of sisterships? I once spent 2.5 years building a boat from a hull and deck to discover the design had a severe wetted surface inbalance.... to the extent the weather helm was uncontrollable in some situations... (by that I mean you couldnt turn the boat!) sail/rig changes had no effect. It was designed by an instructor at the local marine trade school too!
The odds of you getting a good sea trial on an unused boat are low....
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Old 24-03-2014, 17:47   #53
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Re: Are these issues you would avoid on this boat?

If you truly weigh 250lbs you can do a roll test by loosening the dock lines just a bit then step on the toe rail on and off a few times to see what happens. My friend's Halberg Rassy 35 would roll just a little when I went aboard carrying a bit of gear but she'd stop rolling pretty quickly. I weigh 170.
Get the broker to have someone take you for a sail. If you show them that you are truly interested they will accomodate you. Any offer should be subject to a good survey and you can always offer less than asking and negotiate lower if the survey says there is something wrong.
Good luck in whatever you do with this one. I kind of like it because of all the good interior workmanship but if you want to race then this one isn't the boat for you.
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Old 24-03-2014, 18:04   #54
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Re: Are these issues you would avoid on this boat?

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If you truly weigh 250lbs you can do a roll test by loosening the dock lines just a bit then step on the toe rail on and off a few times to see what happens. My friend's Halberg Rassy 35 would roll just a little when I went aboard carrying a bit of gear but she'd stop rolling pretty quickly. I weigh 170.
Get the broker to have someone take you for a sail. If you show them that you are truly interested they will accomodate you. Any offer should be subject to a good survey and you can always offer less than asking and negotiate lower if the survey says there is something wrong.
Good luck in whatever you do with this one. I kind of like it because of all the good interior workmanship but if you want to race then this one isn't the boat for you.
I will try that. We are looking for something my wife feels comfortable and safe in (in the ocean). I think that is why I am drawn to boats with good bulwarks and hull mounted chain plates. I don't need a fast boat. I crew on local race boat for that type of sailing. We just want something that will get us to our destination safely and we can enjoy the trip along the way. And then be comfortable when we get there.
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Old 24-03-2014, 20:13   #55
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Re: Are these issues you would avoid on this boat?

Funny thing about boats, planes, and houses. One of the things they have in common seems to be that they deteriorate just sitting unused and unoccupied.
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Old 24-03-2014, 20:45   #56
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Re: Are these issues you would avoid on this boat?

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It will only displace the equivalent weight of water to it's weight right?
Displacement is it's equivalent water weight. For seawater this is 64.1 lbs per cubic foot. So 21,200 / 64.1 = 330.73 cubic feet of seawater.

Now, again this is NOT the weight of the hull etc. Its just the volume of water displaced.

When you start adding up things on the boat - the hull itself, interior, equipment, mast food, water, fuel, sailors etc etc if this loaded tonnage goes over the equivalent displacement, you sink, since the boat and equipment weighs more than the water that is displaced.

Your base boat is not = 21,200. If it were and you stepped on it, it would weight more than 21,200 (displaced weight available) and you would sink.

21,200 seems like a lot of weight for equipment, but remember all the wood, and remember the thick hull to displace that water, and this counteracts the available weight for other things like bananas and water.

Also its useful when you look at boats for potential cruising to figure out how much gear they can take. A really low number might give you second thoughts. If you figured that you could only carry 1 person and a banana you might not want it to cross the Pacific.

PS: And then there's surface area
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Old 24-03-2014, 20:59   #57
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Re: Are these issues you would avoid on this boat?

The first question I would ask myself is, "What else can I get in this size range for a similar price." Newer boats have newer technology built into them and are inherently better (safer). Also, anything built by a major builder probably has a better chance of success. Just my 2 cents worth.
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Old 24-03-2014, 21:24   #58
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Re: Are these issues you would avoid on this boat?

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...When you start adding up things on the boat - the hull itself, interior, equipment, mast food, water, fuel, sailors etc etc if this loaded tonnage goes over the equivalent displacement, you sink, since the boat and equipment weighs more than the water that is displaced.

Your base boat is not = 21,200. If it were and you stepped on it, it would weight more than 21,200 (displaced weight available) and you would sink...
Yeah, you would sink a tiny fraction of an inch!

A boat's specified displacement is when loaded to "load water line". If you want to load thousands more pounds you'l have to raise the boot stripe, a little, not call for a salvage diver.
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Old 24-03-2014, 21:24   #59
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Re: Are these issues you would avoid on this boat?

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It will only displace the equivalent weight of water to it's weight right?
You are correct, The weight of the vessel and everything in it, equals it's displacement according to Archimedes Principle.

Transport Canada Tonnage Measurement Guide - A ship's displacement or displacement tonnage, is the weight of the water that a ship displaces when it is floating. The term is defined ordinarily such that the ship's fuel tanks are full and all stores are aboard. Displacement is the actual weight of the ship, since a floating body displaces its own weight in water.
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Old 24-03-2014, 21:24   #60
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Displacement is it's equivalent water weight. For seawater this is 64.1 lbs per cubic foot. So 21,200 / 64.1 = 330.73 cubic feet of seawater.

Now, again this is NOT the weight of the hull etc. Its just the volume of water displaced.

When you start adding up things on the boat - the hull itself, interior, equipment, mast food, water, fuel, sailors etc etc if this loaded tonnage goes over the equivalent displacement, you sink, since the boat and equipment weighs more than the water that is displaced.

Your base boat is not = 21,200. If it were and you stepped on it, it would weight more than 21,200 (displaced weight available) and you would sink.

21,200 seems like a lot of weight for equipment, but remember all the wood, and remember the thick hull to displace that water, and this counteracts the available weight for other things like bananas and water.

Also its useful when you look at boats for potential cruising to figure out how much gear they can take. A really low number might give you second thoughts. If you figured that you could only carry 1 person and a banana you might not want it to cross the Pacific.

PS: And then there's surface area

Umm, sorry to disagree, but read up on Archimedes. Displacement is exactly equal to boat's weight at all times unless the boat is either sinking or suspended from skyhooks. Displacement could be calculated as a design parameter based on boat lines, rather than measured- but if it's not equal to the exact weight of the boat it's not the true displacement of the boat. Displacement is NOT the entire hull's theoretical water displacement if it were submerged- that is false. It is the water displacement of the portion of the hull and appendages below the waterline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes'_principle

When you add more weight, the boat sinks slightly lower on it's lines and displaces more water which weighs exactly the same as what you added. So on until the boat is about to be submerged, and you add the last bit of weight. If the amount of buoyancy is not enough to displace exactly the same weight of water as the weight you added, the boat will sink. p


Back to the boat. Rob Mazza wrote this past month in GOB magazine that ballast/displacement ratio tells you nothing about boat's stability, so I wouldn't focus on that. I do agree that this boat could be very pokey in the light stuff, and you don't have enough sisterships out there to know the difference. Interior is phenomenally built, design quirks aside. If surveys well and you're up to wood mast maintenance, then you have the potential for a quality boat beyond what you can find in that price range. I love the classics and how they sail, but only if they were actually designed to be fast for their era. This one doesn't look like that.
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