Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-10-2016, 09:44   #211
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 16,744
Thumbs down Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

Quote:
Originally Posted by crabcake View Post
If you didn't have police with Speed Radar patrolling the highways, most people wouldn't pay attention to the speed limits.

Same principle here.

No enforcement, no adherence.
I think you put your finger on it.

The problem is that professional mariners are -- professionals. I'm not talking about shrimp boats and small traffic, but ships with bridges and standing orders and so forth. You don't need highway patrolmen standing over their shoulders to be sure that in 99% of cases, they do their jobs and follow the Rules and maneuver correctly.

But a bunch of amateurs like us -- it's a different story. With no captain looking over our shoulders, no standing orders, no license, no education, and often -- no brains . . .

You get what we have. That's why ships' bridge officers call us WAFI's.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 10:11   #212
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 4,493
Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Indeed STW speed limits have a couple of disadvantages -- many boats don't have working logs, and also LEO's can't easily measure your STW.

But I think you would agree that obeying a 6 knot SOG speed limit in a river with 4 knots current on the ebb would make many power boats absolutely uncontrollable, so this wouldn't work.


On the water around here, law enforcement is much less aggressive than it is in U.S. waters. There are no "potty police", like used to harass us constantly in Florida, and I've never been boarded once for anything in seven years in UK waters. They don't use speed guns or give out tickets.

What they do do is warn anyone obviously speeding or bothering people with excessive wake, and on rare occasions they do give substantial fines. If you're within a knot or even two of the speed limit, they will not bother you, but people here are very law-abiding here and very careful to obey the speed limits. I can't even recall if I've ever seen anyone speeding on the Hamble.

Especially the power boaters, who in UK waters are more polite and skillful than the average sailors are. Practically all of them go through the excellent RYA training programs and get some kind of Yachtmaster qualification. You can certainly count on them knowing and following the COLREGS! More than I can say for the commerical fishermen around here.
If the man tickets you, it will be with a radar gun or following just like a car. It will be SOG. Give the commercial fisherman a break. It is a hard way to make a living. In the civilized world they may know more about COLREGS than the weekend sailor.
__________________

__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 10:17   #213
Registered User
 
rwidman's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 3,356
Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

I was heading north on the AICW several miles north of the Camp Lejeune military bas when three military boats came speeding by at maybe 30 MPH or more. No call on the VHF, no horn signals, no warning whatsoever. If I had drifted to port a bit there would have been a nasty collision. Their wake sent things flying on my boat and rocked several others I could see.

Were these guys "clueless" or did they just not give a crap about anyone else on the water. I'm guessing they didn't give a crap.
__________________
Ron
HIGH COTTON
Sent from my laptop using Windows 7
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 10:28   #214
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 16,744
Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
If the man tickets you, it will be with a radar gun or following just like a car. It will be SOG. Give the commercial fisherman a break. It is a hard way to make a living. In the civilized world they may know more about COLREGS than the weekend sailor.
If they give you a ticket around here, they will do it by following you, and will use STW by reading their own logs, not SOG, since the bye-laws of the river express the speed limit as STW.


I certainly have sympathy and admiration for commercial fishermen. I just observe as a matter of fact that around here, at least, they are the most likely, by far, to maneuver erratically and contrary to the Rules. We all steer a wide berth around them, over here. Whether they know the rules or not, I don't know, but they very often don't follow them, especially the rules about keeping watch, and how many times have you seen the fishing nav status day shapes simply welded on?



I actually had a collision with a commercial fisherman last year -- in fact, the whole fiasco involved two of them. One of them was fishing at night, single handed, radar off, no AIS (contrary to the rules here), hauling his gear with the boat on autopilot and no one at the helm. He ran into and got his gear tangled with my anchor rode. Thank God he didn't run into my boat.

While I was untangling it (I declined his offer to cut it, and then find it for me later -- right), a second fisherman, also single-handed, stopped by to see what the commotion was about, and while talking to the first fisherman, forgot he was in gear, and t-boned me, smashing his rusty steel prow into the side of my boat, causing 20 000 pounds of damage and putting my boat out of action for half a year. Nor did he have any insurance. He proposed not to report the accident so that he could buy insurance and then report it as if it had happened later. I declined to participate in this, and fortunately my own insurance paid for the damage.

I now leave my deck lights on at anchor in the Solent.


That's all kind of apropos of nothing, but anyway -- around here, commercial fishermen are considered to be navigational hazards, and we give them lots and lots of room, whether they are fishing, or not. Kind of the way ships treat sailboats.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 10:41   #215
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 244
Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
If the man tickets you, it will be with a radar gun or following just like a car. It will be SOG. Give the commercial fisherman a break. It is a hard way to make a living. In the civilized world they may know more about COLREGS than the weekend sailor.
When I was a lad in college I went out with a friend who was a captain of a Florida based forty-five or so foot commercial shrimp boat. We left at sunset, and returned after sunrise.

I would fish and we'd all chat in between pulls, actually all the time. What I can say is this: from my experience the commercial guys for the most part are very courteous. That being said, we had run-ins with power and sail (much more power) that would cause one to quickly lose their religion.

A few caused me to contemplate saying a few Hail Mary's.

This was in the late 60's and early 70's... And there were plenty of idiots back then, just way more now. Given the numbers of watercraft being 'driven' (won't say skippered because that's giving the devil way more than its due) by uneducated and unlicensed "drivers," we're lucky there isn't way more carnage like the Miami Marlins pitcher and chums who recently lost their lives.

I do have major problems with lobster and crab pots!

Moral the story: If you want to have a great fishing experience, make friends with a shrimp boat captain!
__________________
crabcake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 13:51   #216
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,869
Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

Quote:
Originally Posted by crabcake View Post
If you didn't have police with Speed Radar patrolling the highways, most people wouldn't pay attention to the speed limits.

Same principle here.

No enforcement, no adherence.
Actually, I set speed limits for a living.

We set the speed limit based on what people do. Literally, we go out and measure speeds (being careful not to be seen doing so). Studies show enforcement has no long term effect on speeds.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 13:57   #217
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 4,493
Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

it
Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Actually, I set speed limits for a living.

We set the speed limit based on what people do. Literally, we go out and measure speeds (being careful not to be seen doing so). Studies show enforcement has no long term effect on speeds.
Maybe if the courts don't make it more than a slap on the wrist?
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 14:02   #218
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 16,744
Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Actually, I set speed limits for a living.

We set the speed limit based on what people do. Literally, we go out and measure speeds (being careful not to be seen doing so). Studies show enforcement has no long term effect on speeds.
No, I understand what he's talking about. The 85th percentile.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 14:07   #219
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 244
Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Actually, I set speed limits for a living.

We set the speed limit based on what people do. Literally, we go out and measure speeds (being careful not to be seen doing so). Studies show enforcement has no long term effect on speeds.
Well, I would have to respectfully disagree with the studies. If that were the case, idiots wouldn't slow down for the FMP when they are present. Same goes for a highway patrol going down I-95 with a line of cars following him/her.

A marked law enforcement vehicle (car or boat) does more for compliance than anything else.
__________________
crabcake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 14:08   #220
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,869
Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
it

Maybe if the courts don't make it more than a slap on the wrist?
Nope, extreme enforcement can get speeds down for a short period but as soon as it stops, speeds go right back up.

Reality is most people do what is reasonable. If you have 90% of the people violating the rule, it's the rule that's wrong not the people. Some of the colregs run afoul of this issue (ie: how many people used horn to signal a passing last time they were out)
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 14:12   #221
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,869
Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

Quote:
Originally Posted by crabcake View Post
Well, I would have to respectfully disagree with the studies. If that were the case, idiots wouldn't slow down for the FMP when they are present. Same goes for a highway patrol going down I-95 with a line of cars following him/her.

A marked law enforcement vehicle (car or boat) does more for compliance than anything else.
Disagree all you want but unless you are going to hand out tickets by the bushel basket and do so in perpetuity, people drive what they are comfortable with.

More importantly, trying to artificially lower speed limits tends to increase crashes as most people continue to drive at a reasonable speed and a small percentage create a hazard by driving abnormally slow.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 14:20   #222
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 244
Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captndave1 View Post
justification for schooling and licensing for anyone using any boat with a motor. I am all for licensing. you have to have a license to drive a car or fly an airplane, so what's the difference?
: thumb:
__________________
crabcake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 14:28   #223
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 244
Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post

More importantly, trying to artificially lower speed limits tends to increase crashes as most people continue to drive at a reasonable speed and a small percentage create a hazard by driving abnormally slow.
By that reasoning, we should remove all speed limits from school zones?

Would you happen to have some links to the studies you reference?
__________________
crabcake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 14:49   #224
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 4,493
Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Nope, extreme enforcement can get speeds down for a short period but as soon as it stops, speeds go right back up.

Reality is most people do what is reasonable. If you have 90% of the people violating the rule, it's the rule that's wrong not the people. Some of the colregs run afoul of this issue (ie: how many people used horn to signal a passing last time they were out)
I used a horn for backing out of a slip then backing into the channel. I think I got the who is this crazy bastard look? The marina help and three young Coasties that happened to be there with their Rib side arms and suspicious looking tripod forward, No blame on anyone. Just seemed to tell a story about horns?
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 15:10   #225
Professional sailor, retired

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Lakeland, Florida
Boat: Irwin Citation 34
Posts: 77
Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

cops patrolling speed on the water would be about as worthless as cops patrolling speed on our roads. Almost nobody drives within posted speed limits on our roads, so why would anybody think it would be any different on the water.
__________________

__________________
Captndave1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
power boat

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
South Florida boaters, $100K reward to find (2) teenage boaters deckofficer Our Community 20 24-04-2016 13:59
Help for the Clueless . . . EmilyP Navigation 6 22-11-2010 14:33
clueless?? woodielvr Powered Boats 8 17-12-2008 01:37
Consider me clueless please jartwannabe Off Topic Forum 6 02-09-2006 07:16


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:25.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.