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Old 02-10-2016, 14:37   #196
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Just to clarify, are you saying that the speed limit is STW and not SOG?
The tide in the River Hamble runs up to 4 knots on the ebb. The speed limit is 6. If it were SOG, you wouldn't have steerage when running with the ebb at peak flow. Therefore, the speed limit is 6 knots STW.
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Old 02-10-2016, 14:48   #197
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

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The tide in the River Hamble runs up to 4 knots on the ebb. The speed limit is 6. If it were SOG, you wouldn't have steerage when running with the ebb at peak flow. Therefore, the speed limit is 6 knots STW.

Thanks, it's just that there is no standard. Each waterway has it's own rule and there seem to be just as many SOG as STW
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Old 03-10-2016, 02:19   #198
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

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Thanks, it's just that there is no standard. Each waterway has it's own rule and there seem to be just as many SOG as STW
A low SOG speed limit would be dangerous if there is much current. Many power boats have tiny rudders and no steerage below 3 or even 4 knots, plus sometimes huge windage.

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Old 04-10-2016, 05:36   #199
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

Sound signals, what are those? The past few days I've gone through NYC, down the coast of New Jersey, and up the Delaware Bay. Along the way I've been passed by ferries, tugs pushing barges, tugs towing barges, freighters, pleasure power boaters in 20-100' boats, and even a couple of sailboats.

Haven't heard 1 sound signal!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-10-2016, 05:45   #200
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

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Sound signals, what are those? The past few days I've gone through NYC, down the coast of New Jersey, and up the Delaware Bay. Along the way I've been passed by ferries, tugs pushing barges, tugs towing barges, freighters, pleasure power boaters in 20-100' boats, and even a couple of sailboats.

Haven't heard 1 sound signal!!!!!!!!!!!
Only place on the Great Loop where sound signals seem to be regularly observed was on the inland waterways with commercial tow boats....but even then the "sound signals" were almost exclusively made via VHF with no actual horns being used.
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Old 04-10-2016, 05:46   #201
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Sound signals, what are those? The past few days I've gone through NYC, down the coast of New Jersey, and up the Delaware Bay. Along the way I've been passed by ferries, tugs pushing barges, tugs towing barges, freighters, pleasure power boaters in 20-100' boats, and even a couple of sailboats.

Haven't heard 1 sound signal!!!!!!!!!!!

Hearing "see you on the two" over the radio makes a sound.


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Old 04-10-2016, 07:18   #202
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

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Sound signals, what are those? The past few days I've gone through NYC, down the coast of New Jersey, and up the Delaware Bay. Along the way I've been passed by ferries, tugs pushing barges, tugs towing barges, freighters, pleasure power boaters in 20-100' boats, and even a couple of sailboats.

Haven't heard 1 sound signal!!!!!!!!!!!
Exactly.. I keep thinking.. what ocean on which planet are these guys sailing on? From the North Sea thru the English Channel down to Spain, Portugal, Gibraltar.. we sailed some of the busiest waterways in the world.. crossed several TSS' and what are arguably the busiest locks in the world... exchanged tense moments with battleships from the spanish armada, tankers and all sorts of fishing craft.. u name it.. I only heard sound signals twice I believe.. once.. when a QE2 type of cruise ship did a 180 before going astern docking in Cádiz .. the second.. when I pulled out my tiny plastic horn in fog and couldn't get past the first blow cause the thing made such a ridiculous sound we all cracked up laughing on the floor in the cockpit...

Tell u what.. VHF is a good thing.. AIS is a Godsend and I wish I had Radar when I got caught in Fog.. like somebody else already said... any sound signal you are likely to have in a sailing / pleasure craft in vessel the size of any vessel anyone in this forum is laughable.. and nobody out there is using their day shapes (exception: anchor ball in Portugal.. black cone when motoring in Belgium... but only cause they do slap fines if you don't have them) ..sure.. the COLREGS!!.. the COLREGS!!.. well.. whatever.. people don't know them that well.. people don't follow them. It is the reality of the world we are sailing in.

Stay safe
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Old 04-10-2016, 07:20   #203
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

In the Chesapeake right now after running down from Toronto.
I believe sport fishers are officially exempt from any type of signals and it appears mandatory that they show no consideration for anyone else on the water.
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Old 04-10-2016, 07:34   #204
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
The tide in the River Hamble runs up to 4 knots on the ebb. The speed limit is 6. If it were SOG, you wouldn't have steerage when running with the ebb at peak flow. Therefore, the speed limit is 6 knots STW.
Does the judge know that?


I have seen speed limit signs but I have never seen the sign specify SOG or STW. Never. And a LEO could possibly measure your SOG but he/she would have no way of measuring your STW.


Mostly what I see besides the above (and it's far more common) is "Idle Speed No Wake". Idle speed for many of us provides no steerage and anything moving through the water creates some wake.
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Old 04-10-2016, 07:35   #205
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

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..sure.. the COLREGS!!.. the COLREGS!!.. well.. whatever.. people don't know them that well.. people don't follow them. It is the reality of the world we are sailing in. . .
The Rules are legally binding on you. You may choose to ignore them, or to remain wilfully ignorant of them. But if you have an accident as a result of such attitudes, there will be hell to pay, and it may cost you the life of yourself or your family.

Collision avoidance is a science, with a precise procedure, followed by all good mariners either commercial or recreational.

Plenty of people sail around without bothering to figure it out. Power boaters who just knock around inshore waters might never really need to know much. These, and small-time commercial traffic like small fishing boats, are usually the worst offenders. But the more you mix it up with real traffic, the more dangerous this gets to be. The Rules are designed to prevent collisions even if only one vessel is following them, and the ignorant are protected every day by the serious commercial mariner who is doing your work for you.

But one day your luck will run out. And it may cost you your life, or the life of your family.

VHF radio is great, in its place. But it is no substitute for proper seamanship, including proper collision avoidance procedure.
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Old 04-10-2016, 07:45   #206
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

I want to give an example of WHY the unnecessary use of VHF in collision avoidance is discouraged. First of all, everyone should know the official comments of the MCA on the subject:

https://maddenmaritime.files.wordpre.../02/mgn324.pdf

But let's take a really simple example:

Say you are motoring across a bay, and another vessel appears motoring towards you from your port side. The bearing seems to be unchanging, so you assume it's a collision course.

What do you do?

A. Call him up on VHF and discuss who will turn which way.

OR:

B. Hold course and speed and see whether he turns. If he doesn't turn in a reasonable amount of time, turn yourself, preferably to starboard, with a large maneuver which will be unmistakable.


Would anyone seriously propose A? It's a totally simple crossing and nothing to discuss. Whether or not the other vessel follows the Rules, there is no risk of collision if you simply follow the Rules yourself -- they give you a crystal-clear procedure to follow to ensure a safe crossing.

A is wrong for a whole list of reasons. A -- there is nothing to discuss; B -- you might misunderstand each other; C -- you might misidentify each other; D -- you will waste time and might get distracted, chattering on the radio, instead of watching carefully and maneuvering as you are required.

This is an extreme case, but the same principles apply to the great majority of collision avoidance situations. Whenever the Rules are clear what you need to do, and there's no good reason for deviating from them, using the radio is just wrong.

That's what I meant earlier in the thread, when I said that however useful the radio can be in certain situations -- and I use it myself -- it is not a substitute for proper procedure.
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Old 04-10-2016, 07:57   #207
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Does the judge know that?


I have seen speed limit signs but I have never seen the sign specify SOG or STW. Never. And a LEO could possibly measure your SOG but he/she would have no way of measuring your STW.


Mostly what I see besides the above (and it's far more common) is "Idle Speed No Wake". Idle speed for many of us provides no steerage and anything moving through the water creates some wake.
Indeed STW speed limits have a couple of disadvantages -- many boats don't have working logs, and also LEO's can't easily measure your STW.

But I think you would agree that obeying a 6 knot SOG speed limit in a river with 4 knots current on the ebb would make many power boats absolutely uncontrollable, so this wouldn't work.


On the water around here, law enforcement is much less aggressive than it is in U.S. waters. There are no "potty police", like used to harass us constantly in Florida, and I've never been boarded once for anything in seven years in UK waters. They don't use speed guns or give out tickets.

What they do do is warn anyone obviously speeding or bothering people with excessive wake, and on rare occasions they do give substantial fines. If you're within a knot or even two of the speed limit, they will not bother you, but people here are very law-abiding here and very careful to obey the speed limits. I can't even recall if I've ever seen anyone speeding on the Hamble.

Especially the power boaters, who in UK waters are more polite and skillful than the average sailors are. Practically all of them go through the excellent RYA training programs and get some kind of Yachtmaster qualification. You can certainly count on them knowing and following the COLREGS! More than I can say for the commerical fishermen around here.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:08   #208
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

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Exactly.. I keep thinking.. what ocean on which planet are these guys sailing on? From the North Sea thru the English Channel down to Spain, Portugal, Gibraltar.. we sailed some of the busiest waterways in the world.. crossed several TSS' and what are arguably the busiest locks in the world... exchanged tense moments with battleships from the spanish armada, tankers and all sorts of fishing craft.. u name it.. I only heard sound signals twice I believe.. once.. when a QE2 type of cruise ship did a 180 before going astern docking in Cádiz .. the second.. when I pulled out my tiny plastic horn in fog and couldn't get past the first blow cause the thing made such a ridiculous sound we all cracked up laughing on the floor in the cockpit...

Tell u what.. VHF is a good thing.. AIS is a Godsend and I wish I had Radar when I got caught in Fog.. like somebody else already said... any sound signal you are likely to have in a sailing / pleasure craft in vessel the size of any vessel anyone in this forum is laughable.. and nobody out there is using their day shapes (exception: anchor ball in Portugal.. black cone when motoring in Belgium... but only cause they do slap fines if you don't have them) ..sure.. the COLREGS!!.. the COLREGS!!.. well.. whatever.. people don't know them that well.. people don't follow them. It is the reality of the world we are sailing in.

Stay safe
If you didn't have police with Speed Radar patrolling the highways, most people wouldn't pay attention to the speed limits.

Same principle here.

No enforcement, no adherence.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:22   #209
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
...

Say you are motoring across a bay, and another vessel appears motoring towards you from your port side. The bearing seems to be unchanging, so you assume it's a collision course.

What do you do?

A. Call him up on VHF and discuss who will turn which way.

OR:

B. Hold course and speed and see whether he turns. If he doesn't turn in a reasonable amount of time, turn yourself, preferably to starboard, with a large maneuver which will be unmistakable.


Would anyone seriously propose A? It's a totally simple crossing and nothing to discuss. Whether or not the other vessel follows the Rules, there is no risk of collision if you simply follow the Rules yourself -- they give you a crystal-clear procedure to follow to ensure a safe crossing. ...
I'd turn to port to cross behind the other boat's stern.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:39   #210
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Re: Are Power Boaters Clueless

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I'd turn to port to cross behind the other boat's stern.
Could be reasonable. But remember that if you turn to port, and the other vessel wakes up and turns to starboard, you could end up on a collision course with no more time to spare -- millions of collisions have happened exactly like that.

That's why the Rules say turn to starboard where practical.


But depending on the angles and speeds, and if you're still far enough out that he CAN'T create a collision course with his turn to starboard, it could be reasonable to turn to port, and I do prefer passing behind, as I guess you do.
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