Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-11-2014, 09:34   #1
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,761
ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

on long range cruising conditions also as a way to look at boat reliability.

Monohulls versus multihuls compared performance with a cruising load to cross the Atlantic and go cruising on the Caribbean (cruising class).
The same between heavy cats and performance cruising cats, between modern performance cruisers and modern mass production main market cruisers.
Between the two above and expensive modern luxury boats that are usually called bluewater boats.
All the above with older designed boats, even if some are still produced, and finally, regarding all types the importance size has on the boat performance, on boats loaded.



It seems interesting to me and I do that every year on the last 5 or so, as a way to increase my knowledge about different boats and different boat types. Obviously there will always some boats better sailed than others, but average results in several hundreds of boats are always meaningful, as have been on the last years.

There are two separated ARC rallies, one that passed by Cabo Verde (they sailed first, have been there and are already on the way to America and the bigger one, that cross the Atlantic directly and that one leaved Yesterday.

We have more solid results from the one that already had passed Cabo Verde. On this one there are fewer boats but comparatively more cats and less performance cruisers. Thee boat that is ahead is a Cigale 18, an Aluminium fast monohull voyage boat. They have a new model but this one has already some years (10?) even if it is still a relatively fast boat (but not as fast as the new model).

Following it close, two brand new Outremer 51 performance cats. Not far a Lagoon 620, a Jeanneau 57, A Catana 471, a Xp44, a Fountain Pajot 67. A bit more faraway, a new Amel 55, a Voyage 440 cat, a First 45 a Jeanneau 49DS, a Catana 50, a Jeanneau 469, a Lagoon 52.

This year it has been all downwind sailing, with some strong winds. anyway a bit surprising the performance of that Big Lagoon. Many mass market Jeanneaus doing very well, all performance monohull cruisers on this first group (only 3) as well as all performance cats. Two non performance big cats (over 60ft) doing really well and on this group also a smaller Lagoon 52.

On the tail of this group we find the first middle weight "bluewater" boat, the Amel 55.

Leading the middle group we will a new Malo 47 and two Lagoons 450, An older 54ft Amel super Maramu, a Bavaria 46, an older Bowman 48, a Jeanneau 54ds, a Bavaria vision 44and a Hanse 445

On this second group, two Lagoons and two Bavarias, all with 44/45ft and some bigger "bluewater" medium weight boats,one a 47ft new Malo, two older 54fters and a surprisingly fast old 48ft Bowman. on this group also a jeanneau 54DS.

On the third group we have on the head a Najad 460, a Catalina 440, a Halberg Rassy 37, a Gozzard 41, a Hanse 445, a one of 42fr cruiser, a Amel 54, an Island Packet 45, a Najad 520.

Great performance of the relatively new and light HR37, showing that the new HR, contrary to the older ones are fast boats and also a surprisingly good Gozzard 41, even if only in the end we will know how much diesel they have used.

The last group is composed for smaller mass production cruisers, medium weight bigger older sailboats and surprisingly by all the cats with 40ft or smaller: A lagoon 38 and a brand new Nautitech 40.

Regarding size it seems that only performance cruisers are very clearly faster than other monohulls of the same size nad as fast as much bigger boats, even if that HR 37 is an exception. Some other mass production medium sized mass market monohulls are a match to slightly bigger medium weight "bluewater" boats and performance monohulls seems to be size for size a match for performance cats, but as there is here much more performance cats here then performance multihulls so we will look better at this on the other Transat.

Off course this regards mostly trade wind sailing, meaning mostly downwind and this says nothing about comfort, motion adl all kind of subjective criteria. Regarding motion there are all sort of preferences that are not measurable, I mean some prefer the movement of the cats, some the movement of light performance cruisers and some the movement of heavy cruisers, so let's stick to what is measurable: sail performance under cruising conditions.

Unsupported Browser

Comments?
__________________

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 09:58   #2
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

The only thing i know there is one monohull ahead for each multi, lol!!!
Thats good....
__________________

__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 10:33   #3
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,761
Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
The only thing i know there is one monohull ahead for each multi, lol!!!
Thats good....
Nobody like you to mess the things up

Yes, it is a monohull that it is faster and not only one but one from the brand I said on another thread I would chose for bluewater cruising but that is a voyage performance boat of 60ft and the fast performange voyage cats that are not far have 51ft. That's true that they are brand new boats (and beautiful ones) while that Cigale is a 10 year old model, at least. They have now a brand new one, a faster one.

Regarding the Cigale, I would not need a 18m boat, a 16m one would be more than enough and if I had the money and the desire to cross oceans......but I would have wanted a swing keel on it:

This is the old Cigale 18 (it is the one that is making that Transat)






This is the new Cigale 18:


and this is the recent Cigale 16, all aluminium boats:


To be fair, also a movie with the gorgeous and brand new Outremer 51:
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 10:39   #4
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

The Amel and the xp showing hats off to the fp and the voyage,
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 13:15   #5
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,761
Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Yes great passage on both sailboats. I bet that on that XP44 they are not only making a crossing but having fun. Great boat. I would be satisfied with a XP 38, probably the boat that I would chose for the kind of sailing I do and for an occasional transatlantic crossing. They are expensive though.

Look also at that Jeanneau SO 57, the one I said it was a fast boat on another thread. Look at how he is coming down with better wind closing on the Lagoon 620 that is also doing a great passage.

But don't get too enthusiastic about the monohulls because on the other ARC, the bigger one, a Philocat 137, a Lagoon 450!!! and a Outremer 49 are sailing on the head of the transat surrounded by much bigger monohulls. They sailed ahead 15m? but even so, specially the Lagoon, what a start!!!!

World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2014, 06:21   #6
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,761
Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Time to look at the bigger ARC:

They really go on all directions

It seems the more experienced skippers are on this one and that explains why each one is following his own course instead of following the one suggested by the organization. The guys that are going North will got stronger wind, the ones that go south, slightly weaker but both will getting wind at a better angle than the ones that chose to go on the shorter course, but as there is 20/25K winds ahead, following the shortest course will not be the faster way to go, but probably the more comfortable.

A bit too soon to take conclusions but we can see already in each group who is going fast and slow:

On the North group: Ahead the Philocat 137, a Xp 44, a Baltic 52 a Swan 56, an Outremer 49 a Swan 51, a Swan 62, Oyster 56, a Bavaria 42, an Oceanis 54. These are all on the same group.

On the center: 2 Oyster 825 ahead followed by a Moxie 61cat, a x43, an Amel 54, a CNB60, a Oyster 655, a Hanse 575, a Lagoon 450, a Outremer 49.

On the South: a Hanse 505 is ahead followed by a HR 54, an Oceanis 473 a Swan 53, a SO 49, a Oyster 56, a Swan 441, a Bavaria 49 and a Hanse 470.

There are two problems here: The Multihulls don't have a racing division (at least on the tracker) so the ones that are racing appear mixed with the ones that are cruising and almost all performance cruising monohulls chose to do the transat on the racing division. The main difference between the two is that on the racing division they cannot use the engine but for the vast majority this is not serious racing, they don't have a racing crew and are just having more fun while doing the transat and the boats are in fact going to cruise on the Caribbean.

If you look at these ones we will see that among the bigger boats that are ahead, on each of the three main courses, there are much smaller performance cruisers:

On the North Group: A Dufour 45e, a Azuree 40, a First 40.
On the center a Sly 47 and a Gieffe 51 are way ahead of the two Oyster 82 and among the leading group we find a Grand Soleil 43.
On the South we find a First 40.7 among the leading boats.

As revealing as this can be the slowest boats on the fleet, considering only boats of over 40ft, since the really smaller ones (30fts) are normally slower: Among those smaller boats we will find bigger ones: a Moody 47, a Nauticat 42 and a FP Hellia 44.

Regarding smaller boats, between 30ft and 41ft, that are among the ones that are in a middle position (surrounded by bigger boats) we have: A Linnjet 37, a Lagoon 40, a Southerly 38, a Sabre 386, a Hanse 385, a Delphia 33, a Halberg Rassy 352, a Bavaria 39, a Sailjet 40, an Elan 410 a HR 372 and an Oceanis 393.

Maybe the above is the more significant group: We don't find here any heavy or old designed boat, but among the ones of that size on the back of the fleet, we find several older designed boats (that does not mean they are not new) and middle weight ones: Marieholm 32, a Allegro 33, a IP38, a Starlight 39, a Shannon 37, a Rustler 36, a Moody 47, a Mason 44 and a Nauticat 42.

They had a lot of wind and are going to have more. with weaker winds those differences would be a lot bigger.

Just a final comment for the more improbable boat on that transat and one that is doing pretty good also, the Sailjet 40, an European version of the MacGregor, I mean a boat that can sail and motor fast. This one obviously sails a lot better than the MacGregor but it is also an expensive one while the Mac is inexpensive. A very interesting sailboat.

A look at the Sly 48 the one that substituted that Sly 47 that is ahead of the 2 Oysters 82. That is the type of boat i have heard many said that it was just for the med:

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2014, 06:35   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
Boat: Amel Super Maramu 53 ft
Posts: 504
Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

I've been following too. I nearly bought a Cigale 16... but GF... said no.. "if you want me to go RTW with you, we need a center cockpit". They are very quick if a bit rolly in heavy seas..

Its interesting to me that some boats are further north than I would want to be... the winds favour a track of about 250 MAG for best winds until you get to 20 degrees north then westward. I will cross in Nov/Dec next year... with a clean bottom and new sails... 15 days max!! :-)
__________________
Eleuthera 2014 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2014, 07:23   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,425
Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

The Atlantic Odyssey has a FP Helia 44 in the lead.....over 350nm ahead of the 3 Lagoons...and in front of all the monos...

Track the Atlantic Odyssey boats - Cornell Sailing
__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2014, 08:15   #9
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

As long as one understands what one is looking at as well as what the usual traps of sample statistics are (sample bias, etc.) then ARC is a decent source of making some statistical guesses.

If one wants a somewhat less biased sample, then one should track the extra 100 boats or so that depart at the same time and in the period towards January. These probably constitute a very fine "other half of the rotten cruising apple". Together, the apple could be pretty representative of what how and why crosses the Atlantic E to W.

Sure thing, the non-ARC crowd you must be here, talk to them then collect their data on a one by one basis when their passages are done. This is an effort. But if you want to avoid the CICO rule, this is probably the way to do it.

That PhiloCat 45 (ARC 137 or 127) as shown elsewhere above indeed a cream of what cruising could be like if we could all afford very good cruising boats. I have checked her out close up and except for the dubious idea of slanted windows man she is a cookie. Sails very well too (just look up the fleet viewer).

So go now and make wise statistical guesses about what this particular social group uses as their cruising weapon of choice. Just remember these are the attention seeking, well-off, sabbatical folks. Representative of their peer groups elsewhere in the world but hardly an unbiased sample of the cruising population.

Cheers,
b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2014, 08:27   #10
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

BTW that guy who wants a swing keel Cigale will look up Alubat website. I think there are things with swings out there too. If not, go for Allures. Boreal, if you like it cold. And, is it not amazing they are all French?

The big thing about Cigale (and this one is the older style) is they swallow the miles EFFORTLESSLY. And can be driven by a couple. And you do not need to worry about water tanks, watermakers and other such cruising nuisances either.

So I would take one even though she comes with a fixed foil, will plane and run before heavy seas; while others will tow drogues, get pooped and suffer other types of slow motion related cruising preconceptions.

Now, Cigale and Philocat, STOP!!! what were those lucky lotto numbers PLS?

;-)
b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2014, 08:57   #11
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post

(...)

the first middle weight "bluewater" boat, the Amel 55.

(...)

Great performance of the relatively new and light HR37, showing that the new HR, contrary to the older ones are fast boats (...)

(...)

Comments?
Well.

I think no need to say "bluewater" boat where we actually have a proper bluewater cruising boat. For if Amel 55 were not, then what is. Indeed A55 smokes BUT what else do we expect knowing performance of A54 and the legions of Amels Super Maramu / Maramu /Sharki that came before. So this sort of ends the road for those who may claim that a ketch cannot, a mom and pop cannot and a cruising design cannot. For they all can.

Now HR37 is hardly new (I think this design is at least 10 years old). The new one would be a 372 but I am not sure there is any in this fleet. One look at HR37 polars (available at HR website) will tell you this one can. As well as all HR built from the same batch. And when the wind fails she can cross an ocean under her own power too. Great choice for any less comfort savvy / more performance hungry couple.

But again, both boats above (as well as those disgusting Cigale and Philocat) are expensive boats available only if one was born in the right country and family or else educated in the right walk of life and practicing eagerly (often, both). None of which are actually all that conductive to being out there doing the cruising thing.

Cheers,
blah- blah- b-arnakiel
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2014, 09:07   #12
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,761
Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
The Atlantic Odyssey has a FP Helia 44 in the lead.....over 350nm ahead of the 3 Lagoons...and in front of all the monos...

Track the Atlantic Odyssey boats - Cornell Sailing
That's right but that rally has few boats and it is impossible to make average results. There will always be boats exceptionally well sailed and some very badly sailed. Only if you have a big number of boats with several boats of the same type you can take significant results.

On that one the one that is ahead is a Hellia 44 cat (1442nm to the finish), a one of 53ft at 1511, a Najad 460 at 1511, a First 40 at 1625, a Najad 460 at 1687, a Lagoon 400 at 1751 a Morgan 41 at 1760 and a First 4.7 at 1816nm.

These are the first 8 and two of the only 3 performance cruisers on the rally are there, a First 40 in 4th, not faraway from the head, and a considerably smaller boat, a First 44.7, certainly not very well sailed and the third is a very small Pogo cruiser with only 27feet. All the mentioned monohulls, with exception of the two performance cruisers are relatively slow cruisers and even so they are ahead of all the other Multihulls on that Transat: A Dean 500, a Catana 48, another Lagoon 400 and a Catana 42.

By the way, the little 27ft Pogo monohull cruiser is ahead of all of the mentioned catamarans, including the (Catana 48 and Catana 42) except one.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2014, 09:15   #13
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,761
Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
...

So go now and make wise statistical guesses about what this particular social group uses as their cruising weapon of choice. Just remember these are the attention seeking, well-off, sabbatical folks. Representative of their peer groups elsewhere in the world but hardly an unbiased sample of the cruising population.

Cheers,
b.
I believe you talk about the "cruising population" regarding all of those that cruise non stop, even if most of them just live on the boat during the winter and hardly cruise. But that is just an infinitesimal part of the number of the ones that cruise. All those that are making the rally are cruising as the ones that cruise only on what is generically is called the "cruising season", or even those that only cruise for a month on the holidays: all are cruisers, while they are cruising and living aboard.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2014, 09:39   #14
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,761
Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
...
Now HR37 is hardly new (I think this design is at least 10 years old). The new one would be a 372 but I am not sure there is any in this fleet. One look at HR37 polars (available at HR website) will tell you this one can. As well as all HR built from the same batch. And when the wind fails she can cross an ocean under her own power too. Great choice for any less comfort savvy / more performance hungry couple...
blah- blah- b-arnakiel
You know, that "old" HR 37, that only recently went out of the HR catalog, may fool more than one and it was under disguise one of the HR of the new generation. I say under disguise because you look at the boat and it looks an old design but if you look to the hull you will see a modern one and the boat weights about the same thing as the new 372 that everybody knows it is a fast cruiser. Sure, the 372 is faster, it has a more modern hull, rudder and keel, but not as much as the look of the two boats above water line makes suppose


Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2014, 09:47   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,425
Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That's right but that rally has few boats and it is impossible to make average results. There will always be boats exceptionally well sailed and some very badly sailed. Only if you have a big number of boats with several boats of the same type you can take significant results.

On that one the one that is ahead is a Hellia 44 cat (1442nm to the finish), a one of 53ft at 1511, a Najad 460 at 1511, a First 40 at 1625, a Najad 460 at 1687, a Lagoon 400 at 1751 a Morgan 41 at 1760 and a First 4.7 at 1816nm.

These are the first 8 and two of the only 3 performance cruisers on the rally are there, a First 40 in 4th, not faraway from the head, and a considerably smaller boat, a First 44.7, certainly not very well sailed and the third is a very small Pogo cruiser with only 27feet. All the mentioned monohulls, with exception of the two performance cruisers are relatively slow cruisers and even so they are ahead of all the other Multihulls on that Transat: A Dean 500, a Catana 48, another Lagoon 400 and a Catana 42.

By the way, the little 27ft Pogo monohull cruiser is ahead of all of the mentioned catamarans, including the (Catana 48 and Catana 42) except one.
Hence the reason for my (SA) post....Spin it anyway you want, take all the analysis and throw it away, as crew ability, and how they react to the varying conditions, trumps every other 'excuse' offered by exponential proportions.
__________________

__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
arc, sail

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anchor types & Bottom types pbiJim Anchoring & Mooring 31 03-06-2014 21:38
different core types (foam pvc, divinicell vs balsa) schoonerdog Multihull Sailboats 56 22-07-2008 10:56
Vinyl Headliner - Different Types? JeffHale Construction, Maintenance & Refit 5 25-07-2007 14:58



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:52.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.