ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Prairie Chicken

Polux, where are you finding those ARC position images?

I am not sure If I understand what you mean. you have a tracker here and can chose between the ARC and ARC+:

World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

For getting an image from the tracker you can use a program that allows screen shots.

[Prairie Chicken]

That's what I was looking for, and couldn't find. Thanks Polux.

[Polux]

You are contradicting yourself:

Originally Posted by Suijin

.. First of all, you have a whole lot of casual sailors on the rally (and it is a rally,.any distance ocean race is a good deal of luck ...

So, it is a rally or a race? It is a race for very few, even for the ones that make it on the racing division. For the vast majority is just an Atlantic crossing to go cruising on the Caribbean, with boats loaded and that's where is the interest in what regards looking at boat performance. Regarding sailing, even if on the racing division there are some very good sailors, the rest is pretty much average, cruising average and it is on that average that I am interested.

But maybe you did not have understood. I am not interesting in comparing boats with similar characteristics that have a very close performance. I am interesting in comparing different types of cruising boats in loading condition on a transat: Performance cruisers, middle weight cruisers, main market mass production boats, older cruising, contemporary cruising boats, catamarans and multihulls. Not any of them with similar boats of the same type but any given type versus the others.

Originally Posted by Suijin

.
I understand that this is all a very rough swag at boat performance, but I really don't think it tells you anything other than the obvious.

What is obvious to you may not be for others or what others find obvious you could disagree.

For instance, I hear a lot that catamarans, namely performance cruising cats are a lot faster than performance mono-hulls in what regards long range cruising....but this and other ARC shows that the performance on loaded boats for a crossing is very close.

For instance, I hear a lot that in what regards loaded boats "true bluewater" boats have a sailing performance way better than main market production cruisers and that performance cruisers with a cruising load are not faster than true middle weight "bluewater" boats, but what I see is that mass market main cruising boats, size for size, have at least a similar performance regarding "bluewater" middle weight boats and that performance cruisers, even loaded are way faster.

So, what is obvious to some, is not for others. I try to understand what is obvious, with facts

[barnakiel]

RALLY.

Atlantic Rally for Cruisers.

There is a small racing division within the rally populated by mostly cruiser-racer (not racer) boats. E.g. Firsts, J's, X's, etc. There are also some older pure racing designs participating now and then: some Clipper boats, a VOR, a Class 40, etc., now and then.

This year Leopard is probably the most "racing" of the fleet. There is also one old VOR boat. Both are charter boats now.

RALLY for CRUISERS.

Sure thing, whenever two sailing boats come in sight of each other, the situation quickly accelerates to a race.

b.

[Polux]

By the way, and regarding what is obvious, on another thread some respected members of this forum considered Italian modern designs (they call it boat Porn) as exclusively Med boats, lookers to be at the marina and attract attention, boats only meant to go from marina to marina , that their large sailplanes are only useful in light winds and that in ocean conditions those boast are not faster than medium weight “proper” bluewater boats, that LWL is the only thing that matters on those conditions, with loaded boats and so on. There are some of those “looker” doing this ARC (some had already done it several times) and they look to me as sailing rockets on the Ocean crossing conditions, way out of the marinas or med conditions. Well, that was obvious to me but not to others.

I mean a Grand Soleil 43 a Sly 47a Gieffeand a FY 61 (Felci 61):

Felci 61 - YouTube

They leaved far away all medium weight boats of similar size, the Sly 47 easily oversailed, two challenger 72 and its very close to the two brand new Oyster 825. The Grand Soleil is a bit behind the Sly 47 but also ahead of the two 72ft Challenger. The Challenger 72 is a medium weight race boat used for the last time on the BT Global Challenge 2000, circumnavigation race.

The SY61 is way ahead from the two bigger oysters and just behind the new Swan 80, that is the fastest performance cruiser on the transat that is followed by three boats, all three very close, the SY61, a cat Moxie 61 and a spectacular smaller cat, a Philocat 136. Very well sailed certainly the 45ft cat, but not even the best crew can sail fast a slow boat

The Gieffe 51 (the previous model of the 53) choose a more southern route, one that I said it looked worse and it was in fact worse, so we can only compare it with the boats that had sailed on that direction: He is among the boats that are leading on that course, ahead of a Humphreys 77, ahead of Thula a 72ft yacht, ahead of a fast CNB 60 and way ahead of all similarly sized medium weight bluewater boats.

Just find them on the tracker: It is not hard, you have just to look at the head of the transat

On the tracker you can chose between ARC and ARC+. Chose ARC, have a look:
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By the way disregard two medium weight boats that are sailing among the first, I mean the Discovery 57 Juno and the Oyster 575 Atalanta of London. They are not going as fast as they seem.

I think we can conclude that those Italian "med" boat porn yachts are quite well able to sail on Ocean crossing conditions, doing long range cruising and they do it the way I like: Fast and with style.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

RALLY.

Atlantic Rally for Cruisers.

There is a small racing division within the rally populated by mostly cruiser-racer (not racer) boats. E.g. Firsts, J's, X's, etc. There are also some older pure racing designs participating now and then: some Clipper boats, a VOR, a Class 40, etc., now and then.

This year Leopard is probably the most "racing" of the fleet. There is also one old VOR boat. Both are charter boats now.

RALLY for CRUISERS.

Sure thing, whenever two sailing boats come in sight of each other, the situation quickly accelerates to a race.

b.

Yes, two true racing boats, a Farr 100 and a VOR 70 and we can see the huge distance that separates them from the performance cruisers. Even the Swam 80, that is bigger than the VOR70 it is very far away. In what regards racing this is a 3rd rate race. That VOR 70 (Monster project) that is not far away from the Farr 100, made an average result on the Middle sea race. The top guns even with much smaller boats were faster, like a Tp52, a Cookson 50, a R&P60 and the best 40ft cruiser racer was only 6h slower.

There are however a better racing crew out there, racing a performance cruiser that is used as a race boat, I mean the Scarlet Oyster, a well known old racing boat that gets surprisingly good results. They sail a Oyster 48 lightwave, from the time when Oyster made performance boats. A great boat well advanced for its time and an even better crew. They are a little behind from that Grand Soleil 43 and are leading their division.

http://www.scarletoyster.com/

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

(...)

I think we can conclude that those Italian "med" boat porn yachts are quite well able to sail on Ocean crossing conditions, doing long range cruising and they do it the way I like: Fast and with style.

Yes. When the crossing is a downwind trade winds ride. ;-)

They are not doing long range cruising. They are going to the Caribbean where they will be worked charter thru the winter then they go back to charter in the Med during summers.

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Yes. When the crossing is a downwind trade winds ride. ;-)

It seems you don't know that all of the boats mentioned excel not in downwind sailing but on upwind sailing, a very prevalent wind on the med were in many places, namely Italy, the winds change frequently of direction.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

They are not doing long range cruising. They are going to the Caribbean where they will be worked charter thru the winter then they go back to charter in the Med during summers.
b.

It seems that you think those boats belong to a charter firm. I don't know where you get the Idea.

The Grand soleil 43 is owned and sailed to a French, the owner of a well known French sail loft, "Incidence voiles". I never heard he charted his boat.

The Sly 47 and is sailed and owned by Paolo Orlandi, an Italian that has already crossed the Atlantic on his boat. He cruises and races his boat and I don't know why you say he is going to charter it.

The Gieffe 51 is owned and sailed by Carl, that charter his boat as a living, I mean he accepts guests, sailing himself the boat. This is a situation that is usual on top yachts, including Oysters. I don't think that it was this kind of "charter" you were talking about.
http://www.nisida-yacht-charter.com/about.html

The FY 61 is owned and sailed by a well known Italian sailor, Marco Serafini. He cruises and races his boat (and other boats) on the main Italian races. he was invited to make this ARC on the racing division and I believe he is going to take the opportunity of having his boat on the Caribbean to cruise there and make the local racing circuit. He accepts also guests on his boat as a way of making some money.
Barco con tripulación TYKE - Presentaci?n

[Polux]

And a look at how the Danish boats are doing on the Rally, I mean the X yachts. They are many and are doing very well, even the ones from the heavier XC cruising line, even if slower that the ones from the performance cruising linde, the older X and the newer XP line.

Leading the fleet a X55, on the head of the transat, side by side with the First Oyster 825, ahead of the second one, well ahead of the first Outremer 49 and ahead of the first Swan 65. After, at almost the same vertical line but separated laterally by many miles: A XP44, aX442, A X45(racing line), another XP44. They are all a bit behind that Grand Soleil 43 and making equal game with the two first Swans, a 65 and a 56 (if we exclude the Swan 80 that is well ahead). A bit behind comes the first X from the cruising line, a X45, having slightly ahead a Najad 570 and making equal game with a Swan 51, a Swan 62RS, the first Oyster 575, the first Lagoon 450, the second Outremer 49 and a Fountain Pajot 67. The last one is a smaller XC 42, at about the middle of the ARC fleet.
An overall great performance for the X yachts, sailing among much bigger boats.

And after the boats with a great sailing performance....the ones with a lousy one and the worst of those is a Island Packet 38, a bit better but not much better an old Mason 44, better an old Jeanneau Sun Fizz 40, better a small old Marieholm 32 (I love this boat) makes equal play with a Shannon 37, a Beneteau 393, a Nauticat 42, an old Amel Maramu 46, A southerly 42, a Moody 47 and a Allegro 33.

Tomorrow I will look at the performance of mass production main market modern cruisers.

http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/eventfleetviewer.aspx

[barnakiel]

In my book accepting paying guests is called charter.

That IP may be sailing slower but look at the other one, the 45, I watched them sailing the first leg of the+ and they sailed very well; I was much impressed. (Time Bandit)

X-Yachts. YES.

Looks like Eleonora will take the line honors ...

Shira HR37 goes par with boats 10ft longer too. Good try there I think they will win their division.

b.

[barnakiel]

Re Italian. I speak some. Mamma mia, pronto, Valpolicella, etc. Italians make good food. Excellent, actually.

Now their boat I did like was the one with the front window of the DS sliding aft/open convertible style. Anybody remembers her name perhaps? She has that bright modern painting as a bulkhead in the salon too ...

b.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Polux

You are contradicting yourself:

So, it is a rally or a race? It is a race for very few, even for the ones that make it on the racing division. For the vast majority is just an Atlantic crossing to go cruising on the Caribbean, with boats loaded and that's where is the interest in what regards looking at boat performance. Regarding sailing, even if on the racing division there are some very good sailors, the rest is pretty much average, cruising average and it is on that average that I am interested.

I'm not contradicting myself. My point is that the crews and their skills and intentions span a wide spectrum, even among the "cruising average" and it's impossible to generalize at all, and certainly not by what boat they sail. Some like to sail fast and take pleasure from keeping the boat moving well. Others are happy to pole out the genoa, leave the main down, and read in the cockpit. Short of interviewing each and every crew I'm not sure how you can draw any meaningful conclusions.

Originally Posted by Polux

But maybe you did not have understood. I am not interesting in comparing boats with similar characteristics that have a very close performance. I am interesting in comparing different types of cruising boats in loading condition on a transat: Performance cruisers, middle weight cruisers, main market mass production boats, older cruising, contemporary cruising boats, catamarans and multihulls. Not any of them with similar boats of the same type but any given type versus the others.

Again, I think the results of this race are far less valuable than looking at the boats' specifications and PHRF ratings. Are mass market production boats going to hold their own against performance cruisers in terms of miles per day? Probably, since they are generally built for speed vs. offshore comfort or durability.

Originally Posted by Polux

For instance, I hear a lot that in what regards loaded boats "true bluewater" boats have a sailing performance way better than main market production cruisers and that performance cruisers with a cruising load are not faster than true middle weight "bluewater" boats, but what I see is that mass market main cruising boats, size for size, have at least a similar performance regarding "bluewater" middle weight boats and that performance cruisers, even loaded are way faster.

So, what is obvious to some, is not for others. I try to understand what is obvious, with facts

I have never heard anyone claim that "true blue water" boats are better performers, in terms of miles per day, than production boats. Their very hull form generally precludes that unless they are modern long distance ocean cruising sleds. They get their moniker from a variety of qualities that are not measured by speed. Are those important during an ocean crossing? That depends on the crew, the conditions, etc. Certainly they are less important during a trade wind milk run rally like the ARC, based on my own experience.

I think if you're looking for facts you're looking in the wrong place. Given the huge mountain of variables in the ARC, what you're actually looking at is of little value in evaluating boat speed and sailing qualities.

By the way, no need to get your pants all in a bunch just because I disagree with you.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Re Italian. I speak some. Mamma mia, pronto, Valpolicella, etc. Italians make good food. Excellent, actually.

Now their boat I did like was the one with the front window of the DS sliding aft/open convertible style. Anybody remembers her name perhaps? She has that bright modern painting as a bulkhead in the salon too ...

b.

Avere qualche informazione in più su quella barca, sembra interesante!!!!!

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Again, I think the results of this race are far less valuable than looking at the boats' specifications and PHRF ratings. Are mass market production boats going to hold their own against performance cruisers in terms of miles per day? Probably, since they are generally built for speed vs. offshore comfort or durability.

Well, no, the results show that in average performance cruisers on the ARC are faster then mass production main market cruisers.

And you are contradicting yourself again when saying that probably mass market production boats will hold their own regarding performance cruisers and saying also that looking at the PHRF rating is the way to look at a boat performance. If that was so how can you say that mass market production cruisers will hold their own versus performance cruisers if these ones have a considerable bigger PHRF compared with them? Makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Suijin

By the way, no need to get your pants all in a bunch just because I disagree with you.

I don't understand what you mean but you sure look unjustifiably disagreeable.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

In my book accepting paying guests is called charter.

It does not seem to me that you were talking about a owner taking some paying guests when you refereed to charter. Oyster owners do that too.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

That IP may be sailing slower but look at the other one, the 45, I watched them sailing the first leg of the+ and they sailed very well; I was much impressed. (Time Bandit)

Yes, it is a very well sailed boat but even so it is now at less then half position on the fleet, being by far outsailed by the little Halberg Rassy 37 (also very well sailed) by a Bavaria Vision 44, by a Najad 460, a Bavaria 46, a Malo 47 and a Jeanneau 469.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

X-Yachts. YES.
b.

It is not the Xyachts that are great but the type of sailboat. There are several brands of performance cruisers with those characteristics, among them the Grand Soleil (that are Italians).