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Old 25-11-2014, 19:17   #31
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
BTW that guy who wants a swing keel Cigale will look up Alubat website. I think there are things with swings out there too. If not, go for Allures. Boreal, if you like it cold. And, is it not amazing they are all French?

The big thing about Cigale (and this one is the older style) is they swallow the miles EFFORTLESSLY. And can be driven by a couple. And you do not need to worry about water tanks, watermakers and other such cruising nuisances either.

So I would take one even though she comes with a fixed foil, will plane and run before heavy seas; while others will tow drogues, get pooped and suffer other types of slow motion related cruising preconceptions.

Now, Cigale and Philocat, STOP!!! what were those lucky lotto numbers PLS?

;-)
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I was very impressed by Christophe Auguin's Cigale 16. I was passed by him while motorsailing upwind (on a fast 18m yacht) in the beagle channel. I talked to him afterwards in Puerto Williams and it turns out he was sailing very comfortably under staysail and main without the engine. Put me to shame!

He ran the Cigale quite happily down to Antarctica season after season without problems. The big wide stern had a big inflatable sitting on it. Impressive boat and a very impressive seaman.

Location de voiliers pour croisiere avec ?quipage : ANTIPODE - Christophe Auguin
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Old 25-11-2014, 19:19   #32
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Back to our ARC fleet.

I like what X-yachts have for show. Their XP series seem to sail fine (watch GarliX). I have seen the interiors and they are fine too. They are not very much like Firsts and not quite as sexy as Arconas, a fine option for someone who does not like either.

For cruising-racing (rather than racing-cruising) they may be seen as a less spirited, still very worthy, alternative to a Class 40 cruising derivative.

I would like to sail one of them one day but I only know people who have older X's.

On the other vane of my neurotic portfolio: I do not like the complete lack of provisions for crew protection from the elements. I would like to see a boat as fine as a First, X or Arcona and with some sort of wind and sun shields that would make any longer steering bearable. As is, all biminis and screens in this style of boats seem to me some variation of retro fitted, unsightly SS tubing, blue sunbrella (black in the US) and acrylic "glass". Cheap, flimsy and miles away from low-windage.

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Old 25-11-2014, 19:33   #33
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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Of course!
Really? I saw 15/20K winds... but don't you know that you can have a look at the wind for several days on the tracker?
World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

and besides you only need to follow the logs to know about the conditions:

"Cheri - Sunday, November 23, 2014
25 November 2014
Postponement.., the start will be delayed by one day. Apparently the wind out on the sea is so strong that leakage of the cruising class can not be held responsible.
Helen - Day 2
25 November 2014
Greetings to family, friends and all ARC participants.
A great send off, well done to all those involved in the organisation.
Great first days sailing, despite falling into the odd wind dead spot, but
this was then followed by a force 7.
Monomotapa - Monomtapa
25 November 2014
During the night the wind speed increased to above 20 knots and the wave height increased to 4 metres. the waves on the starboard rear quarter down wind meant that we could surf down them to gain maximum speed.
Jo - 26:30:89N 17:18:94
25 November 2014
The wind is a reasonably consistent 20 knots with the odd gust of 25 knots. We are surfing down the occasional wave under full main and genoa making 7-9 knots and as I write, the wind is slightly fading, forcing us to windward seeking greater apparent wind.
Southern Child - Day 1 25/11
25 November 2014
We had a lovely start yesterday for the ARC after our postponement starting in beautiful clear skys and 20knots of breeze as forecast! Glamour!!!
We hit the acceleration zone off the island at about midday which gave us up to 30 knots, we decided to keep the day simple and try and get people helming during the day so kept our white sails (head sail and main only) up. "


I would say that 15/20K sometimes 30K and with some inevitable lower wind holes pretty much describes the conditions. Not the ones where a cruiser would fly a big Downwind sail.

Anyway you have just to look at the boat speeds to see that they have good wind. Right know the tracking weather device gives between 14 and 19k for the zone where they are sailing...but that is just sustained wind, from time to time it will be stronger. By the way that Hellia 44 continues to be making a lousy speed, 4.9K, while a nearby Oceanis 393 is making 6.1k. That probably only means they are inexperienced and are afraid of the gusting wind, having the boat deeply reefed for the night.
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Old 26-11-2014, 04:59   #34
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

The start was postponed as the night before the start and the start day we had winds of NW with regular 25 (gusting 30) over open water NW of the island. It was very cold (well below 20 degs at night) & showery too. These conditions translate to momentary gusts of over 40 here in the marina as all NW winds get turbulent over the flat isthmus in between two sets of tall hills.

On the delayed departure day, conditions were fine at the start and sure gusty in the acceleration zone off Gando/Pozo. Gando can get twice the wind at times. Then there is a huge dead spot behind the island and the lame ones got trapped while the ones who listened sailed a wide arch and so sailing a longer course they stayed in cleaner flow.

The sea was pretty rough 8 to 10 ft and bouncy as it can be here in between our islands.

Further out conditions were OK to fly any kite provided the crew were of a kite type. Many ARC boats are poled out jibs or jib / main downwind combo. Nothing fancy. Many plain vanilla boats sail nearly as fast as kite boats and some sail faster than some kite boats. A well set up jib and jib (you want EXTRA long poles!) or a jib and main combo can outperform a kite, even though this is not the general rule.

Speeds on the tracker (so I think, or else) are not VMG and so they count little towards how good any boat is at sailing between two points on a downwind destination. Modern kites are mostly of the gennaker style and boats tend to sail broader angles. Yes they are faster then and nicer to live on BUT the extra speed not always translates into downwind 'efficiency'. The same applies to some cats that sail broad reaches rather than dead downwind. Those who sail downwind and fly kites (in this case a proper spinnaker is the weapon) will outperform everything else in their own class. One thing is sure, arrival times discount everything and tell you the averaged truth.

Right now the High is well and building up. They are going to have good pressure for at least a couple of days.

So here two eurocents of what we could see from the start line and from our little ride down the coast. In the end, they all (well, most of the time) make it to the other side and have plenty of fun out there. That's, I think, the whole point.

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Old 26-11-2014, 05:06   #35
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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Originally Posted by FollowingCs View Post
Antares 44i catamaran in 2012. 3 videos total, this is the first one:

https://vimeo.com/channels/fieldtrip/42722361
Let's stay on this year's ARC.
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Old 26-11-2014, 05:55   #36
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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Back to our ARC fleet.

I like what X-yachts have for show. Their XP series seem to sail fine (watch GarliX). I have seen the interiors and they are fine too. They are not very much like Firsts and not quite as sexy as Arconas, a fine option for someone who does not like either.

For cruising-racing (rather than racing-cruising) they may be seen as a less spirited, still very worthy, alternative to a Class 40 cruising derivative.

I would like to sail one of them one day but I only know people who have older X's.
As you probably know some years back the old Xyachts split in two series, the XP and the XC. The designer is the same, Niels Jeppesen. They still have a racing series too, with very naked interiors, a bit like the J111 is to the J122, I mean the XP series to the racing ones.

The boat design follow a on tradition development line, the one that was brought by making fast boats to compete in IRS and ORCI. The evolution of the design on the boats never stopped and the modern XP are faster than the older X but nothing radical. Saying this the XP are very fast sailboats and they make my style of boat.

Comparing them with the Pogo or the Slower Azuree 40 (also going well on the Rally) is comparing two different lines of performance boat development, one that come from the improvements that come from handicap racing on crewed boats other that come from the development of solo Open ocean racers much less limited by the formula of an handicap rating.

I don't want to go further on this but the main difference regards easiness while solo sailed, better performance downwind and on a beam reach towards the Open style boats and a better performance on light winds and close upwind (specially with waves) on a traditionally developed hull. They can also go very fast downwind but they need a crew to do that while the Open boat can do that on autopilot.

The Cigale was the first oceanic cruising boat developed following the Open solo principles, almost 20 years ago, by Finot and designed to be his personal cruising boat. Quite revolutionary at the time: effortlessness speed is a good way to describe it.
Cigale 14 M English version

Now there are many cruising boats designed using that principle, probably the better type of monohulls to cross oceans on the trade winds and to voyage extensively.

On the Med or in the Baltic, with their many times light and upwind winds, a boat like the Xyacht, or my own, that has a similar concept, have a better overall performance even if more difficult to sail.

Just as a final comment about Finot: when he designed the Pogo 10.50, almost 10 years ago, the first cruising Pogo with a swing keel, a much affordable and simpler boat, 63 year's old Finot had one for himself, for cruising with his wive, a special one more tuned for performance Regarding Finot we cannot say that he doesn't believe in the type of boats he designs for cruising, even if many think they are too naked or to extreme
pogo10.50
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Old 26-11-2014, 15:13   #37
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

AFIK the Alubat Cigale is not a swinging or lifting keel but a fixed keel. Alubat does make the famous Ovni line and now the Evolution line of Ovni's which almost all have a swinging keel. These are usually not ballasted in the keel but ballasted in the hull itself.

In my particular French "deriveur" the Meta Dalu 47 the swinging keel came in two versions ballasted and un-ballasted. Mine is ballasted is about 500 kg or 1000 lbs on the tip. The remainder of the ballast is in the hull just behind the fuel and water tanks.

I think we would do quite well in the downwind portion of this crossing judging by our experience from Aruba to Panama. The boat handles well with the just the genoa is 25-35 kt. winds.
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Old 26-11-2014, 15:25   #38
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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AFIK the Alubat Cigale is not a swinging or lifting keel but a fixed keel. Alubat does make the famous Ovni line and now the Evolution line of Ovni's which almost all have a swinging keel. These are usually not ballasted in the keel but ballasted in the hull itself.

In my particular French "deriveur" the Meta Dalu 47 the swinging keel came in two versions ballasted and un-ballasted. Mine is ballasted is about 500 kg or 1000 lbs on the tip. The remainder of the ballast is in the hull just behind the fuel and water tanks.

I think we would do quite well in the downwind portion of this crossing judging by our experience from Aruba to Panama. The boat handles well with the just the genoa is 25-35 kt. winds.
If you read the post you would see that nobody said the Cigale had a swing keel. I said I would like a Cigale with one

When I was talking about swing keels I was talking about swing keels with all the ballast on the keel, like on the Pogo or Wauquiez 39.
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Old 27-11-2014, 11:20   #39
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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I am not sure why a canting keel in a cruising context.

You get a canting keel, you want daggerboards, you get dagerrboards, you get cluttered interior, and so forth. Pretty messy way to build a cruising boat.

I would go for a lifting keel with bulb as this keeps the ballast low, provides excellent upwind performance and allows for shallow (-er) water anchoring.

If an extra righting moment is required, I would opt for water ballast - easier to build into a cruising hull, can be emptied when not required and can be drunk in emergency (just remember to make the first fill while still in port ;-).

b.
That's an excellent point about the daggerboard (only one on centerline would be required, though two offset ones with curved lifting surfaces may actually be easier to incorporate into the interior). I do like your thoughts on drinkable water ballast as well. I'm not positive that having that much extra tankage around would be less of an impact on interior design than a daggerboard, though.
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Old 27-11-2014, 11:37   #40
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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There are very few cruising boats with canting keels: complicated and expensive. A canting keel that cants? Even more complicated and expensive...but I know of a bright NA that had built one, not with one keel, but with two. Kind of a favorite NA to me, good taste and great creativity. The name is Defline and the boat is the "Imagine 53"

"This very audacious sailboat, designed by Martin Defline, is equipped with two hydraulically operated canting keels. A central computer manages their angulation according to the heel, and the strength and angle of the wind. The keels can be raised on each side to reduce the draft when approaching shallow anchorage. This highly equipped sailboat is to our knowledge unparalleled."

Frédéric Augendre - Voiles & Voiliers





Imagine 53 - Nouvelle Vague (Imagine 55)
Mind... Blown...

What a cool idea. Obviously lifting and canting is a very difficult idea to implement if you also add in "reliable" as a design parameter. The big ocean racers cant only because they don't ever need to go into shallow water.

Two keels gives you half the righting moment, but allows a more reliable way to get into short water. Also, the keel that isn't up is being used for lift, so you don't need a daggerboard. The only thing I don't like is that "computer controlled" bit. Perhaps a necessary evil as long as it can be bypassed when it fries.
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Old 27-11-2014, 20:04   #41
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Update on the ARC+

It seems that the two Cigale 18 and the Jeanneau 57 leaved definitively behind all the cats, including the bigger Lagoon 620 that has been remarkably quick, going at the same pace as the smaller but faster brand new Outremer 51 performance cats. The first of the monohull performance cruisers, a smaller X44 is keeping up with the bigger Outremer 51 and has been a bit faster then them (he was behind). After the leading group comes a First 45 and a well sailed Lagoon 450.

Some distance behind comes the first middle weight cruisers, a Bowman 48 and a new Amel 55, followed by a new Malo 47 and an older Amel super Maramu, a Bavaria 46, a SO 49DS and a Amel 54. They all have been making a great passage, fast, ahead of 4 cats, including a lagoon 52.

At about the middle, a relatively recent 37 Halberg Rassy is going remarkably fast, "battling" with a SO 54DS and ahead of an Island Packet 45.

At the tail, away from everybody an old Trintella 45.
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Old 28-11-2014, 06:09   #42
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

In the other fleet, a 45 ft PhiloCat is showing her sterns to the fleet of way bigger boats of both sexes. An XP is doing very well too.

I have talked to boat boys who cleaned that Jeanneau's bottom just before the departure. They whatsupped me this picture.

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Old 28-11-2014, 12:55   #43
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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In the other fleet, a 45 ft PhiloCat is showing her sterns to the fleet of way bigger boats of both sexes. An XP is doing very well too.

I have talked to boat boys who cleaned that Jeanneau's bottom just before the departure. They whatsupped me this picture.

b.
But I bet with you they are using very little the engine if using it at all. They will publish that data at the end, I mean how much diesel each boat has spent. The Jeanneau 57 is a fast boat.

Regarding the bigger ARC I will wait some more time to make an update: Too many different courses and to have meaningful information we should compare boats on an approximately same course otherwise the gains may have to do with a better routing and not with boat performance.

But I will have an update at the one that was mentioned by Dotdun, the Atlantic Odyssey , that with less boats is also interesting even if less boats means that there are more changes to have fewer well sailed boats like that new Helia 44 that continues ahead of an old one off German Freers 53ft sailboat. Not far away comes a Challenge 72 and then a smaller First 40, Followed by a Najad 460. At some distance comes next a Lagoon 400, followed by a Morgan 41. The Little 27 ft Pogo (850) continues to make a great transat, sailing at about the middle of the fleet: Immediately ahead and not far, a Trintella 46, a Moody 425, a SO 469 and behind the little Pogo, a Malo 37, A Dufour 445, a Beneteau Oceanis 46, a Bruce Roberts 53, a cat Catana 42, a Tayana 52, a cat Previlege 37, a cat Balicat 42, a Halberg Rassy 46, another HR 46 and several other bigger boats.

So this little 27ft cruiser contradicts the ones that say that a much smaller performance cruiser cannot be way faster than much bigger cruising boats due to the weight of the load needed for cruising. They are three on that boat AND THEY ARE CRUISING since this rally is even less of a competition that the ARC. Of course it will not be the same kind of cruising that they are doing on that Tayana 52 that they left behind, but they are probably having much more fun sailing the little Pogo than the guys that are sailing the Tayana and probably the guys on the Tayana will not be interested in having fun sailing anyway.

By no way I am defending that kind of Spartan type of cruising over other types of cruising. I have done that when I was younger (unfortunately not on a fast boat) now I would not have done it (I guess age spoiled me) but the fact is that some do it and have pleasure doing it and that's a fact. Against facts there are no arguments Small performance cruising boats can cruise on a Spartan Zen kind of way and be much faster than much bigger less fast sailboats even on long range cruising.

Track the Atlantic Odyssey boats - Cornell Sailing
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Old 28-11-2014, 13:22   #44
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Polux, where are you finding those ARC position images?
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Old 28-11-2014, 14:32   #45
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

I think it's really erroneous to draw any real conclusions about boat performance based on the ARC other than "longer is faster" and "racing hulls are faster". First of all, you have a whole lot of casual sailors on the rally (and it is a rally, even if they want to call it a race), some of who sail conservatively and may not even have a kite to put up. They may also not sail their boat to its best advantage in term of angles, conditions, etc. Second, any distance ocean race is a good deal of luck given how much variation there can be in conditions, even a few miles apart. You check in on the SSB net only to find that a boat 10 miles to your south has 5 knots more wind than you do. I've done a fair amount of ocean racing and it's really just one big crap shoot unless your competing at the highest level. Even then, luck can play a huge role in the outcome.

I understand that this is all a very rough swag at boat performance, but I really don't think it tells you anything other than the obvious.
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