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Old 25-11-2014, 09:57   #16
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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BTW that guy who wants a swing keel Cigale will look up Alubat website. I think there are things with swings out there too. If not, go for Allures. Boreal, if you like it cold. And, is it not amazing they are all French?

The big thing about Cigale (and this one is the older style) is they swallow the miles EFFORTLESSLY. And can be driven by a couple. And you do not need to worry about water tanks, watermakers and other such cruising nuisances either.

So I would take one even though she comes with a fixed foil, will plane and run before heavy seas; while others will tow drogues, get pooped and suffer other types of slow motion related cruising preconceptions.

Now, Cigale and Philocat, STOP!!! what were those lucky lotto numbers PLS?

;-)
b.
There are a huge difference between what is called today a swing keel (what the French call a Swing keel) and the keels you see on Boreal, Allures or on the different Alubat. While all those are called by the French "Deriveur Integrale" the Swing keel is another all together story: The difference is that the "Deriveur" keels have not ballast, being all inside the boat or on the Allures case partially in a box just above waterline, on a Swing keel all the ballast is on a very deep keel.

I don't need to tell you what that represents regarding weight savings and regarding extra power and stability. On a fast boat like the Cigale the only thing that can substitute that big draft and deeply bulbed keel without the loss of performance, is a modern swing keel.

Go to my blog and on the last posts there are several about modern bluewater boats with swing keels, big ones, probably more expensive than the Cigale that is not that expensive (for the size). The only "cheaper" alternative in what regards those swing keels are the cruising Pogos. Jeanneau has them too but I believe available only on the 349 and 379. Wauquiez has also one on the 39 as an option. I sailed on one with one of those; Great except for putting the boat on the berth

Regarding that Cigale eaten miles effortlessly you are right. Many would think that performance would have a big racing team. They are certainly good sailors and among them, some very experience ones, but they are not racing. These photos were taken on the leg from Canary Islands to Cabo Verde aboard that Cigale:



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Old 25-11-2014, 10:17   #17
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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Hence the reason for my (SA) post....Spin it anyway you want, take all the analysis and throw it away, as crew ability, and how they react to the varying conditions, trumps every other 'excuse' offered by exponential proportions.
It is so hard to understand I don't give a dam if it is a monohull that arrives first or a monohull? I am interested in understanding better different types of boats and their sailing potential and that information can only be given in what regards cruising, with crews that have very different sailing performance, on average terms and that's on the averages that I am interested not in any particularly good or badly sailed sailboat. On the ARC there is a Hellia 44 on the tail of the Rally. Here there is one at the head. That means this one is exceptionally well sailed and the other are exceptionally badly sailed.

Averages is what count in what regards the information I am interested in.
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Old 25-11-2014, 13:21   #18
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Yep.

HR37 is representative of many other HR of that era. I wx routed an HR46 from the same batch and I was pretty unimpressed with her S/A ratio, with her in-mast furling ....

And then I saw their daily position reports and clocked their miles sailed. And I had to adjust my earlier (mis-) understanding of how these perform.

Off course, a fast boat can be sailed slow too ;-) but not the other way round ;-) ;-)

BTW Now with mint 37 and new 372 available at the same time, it really boils down to which cockpit you like best.

Well done, Frers!

Cheers,
b.
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Old 25-11-2014, 13:33   #19
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

OK. I see.

I call a swing keel a swingy no matter if it is light or heavy, much as I believe I can see the advantages and limitations of each modality.

In such a case, I would opt for a lifting ballasted bulb keel like the one on Hetairos. I think this is a fine alternative for a heavy swingy.

I am not sure how many cruising boats have them (do they?). I know a handful of maxi yachts do though.

b.
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Old 25-11-2014, 13:47   #20
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
OK. I see.

I call a swing keel a swingy no matter if it is light or heavy, much as I believe I can see the advantages and limitations of each modality.

In such a case, I would opt for a lifting ballasted bulb keel like the one on Hetairos. I think this is a fine alternative for a heavy swingy.

I am not sure how many cruising boats have them (do they?). I know a handful of maxi yachts do though.

b.
How about one that both lifts and cants? If it wasn't for the complexity and likelihood of breakage, that would be the ultimate keel. I've only sailed once with a canting keel, but it is magic!
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Old 25-11-2014, 14:15   #21
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Antares 44i catamaran in 2012. 3 videos total, this is the first one:

https://vimeo.com/channels/fieldtrip/42722361
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Old 25-11-2014, 16:06   #22
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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It is so hard to understand I don't give a dam if it is a monohull that arrives first or a monohull? I am interested in understanding better different types of boats and their sailing potential and that information can only be given in what regards cruising, with crews that have very different sailing performance, on average terms and that's on the averages that I am interested not in any particularly good or badly sailed sailboat. On the ARC there is a Hellia 44 on the tail of the Rally. Here there is one at the head. That means this one is exceptionally well sailed and the other are exceptionally badly sailed.

Averages is what count in what regards the information I am interested in.
Do you consider sail plan? 2 Helia 44's downwind, one with a parasailor and one with factory main/genoa, big difference in performance, no matter the crew.

Hence, to many variables to draw conclusions.

Carry on...
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Old 25-11-2014, 16:51   #23
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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Do you consider sail plan? 2 Helia 44's downwind, one with a parasailor and one with factory main/genoa, big difference in performance, no matter the crew.
Hence, to many variables to draw conclusions.
Carry on...
On the ARC they have had over 15 to 30K, sometimes gusting 40K. no much use for a parasailor.
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Old 25-11-2014, 16:53   #24
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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How about one that both lifts and cants? If it wasn't for the complexity and likelihood of breakage, that would be the ultimate keel. I've only sailed once with a canting keel, but it is magic!
I am not sure why a canting keel in a cruising context.

You get a canting keel, you want daggerboards, you get dagerrboards, you get cluttered interior, and so forth. Pretty messy way to build a cruising boat.

I would go for a lifting keel with bulb as this keeps the ballast low, provides excellent upwind performance and allows for shallow (-er) water anchoring.

If an extra righting moment is required, I would opt for water ballast - easier to build into a cruising hull, can be emptied when not required and can be drunk in emergency (just remember to make the first fill while still in port ;-).

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Old 25-11-2014, 17:01   #25
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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...

BTW Now with mint 37 and new 372 available at the same time, it really boils down to which cockpit you like best.
Well done, Frers!
Cheers,
b.
Not anymore. The 37 was taken out of the catalog (last year?). Anyway the 372 is a better boat with a more modern hull. Really a very good boat. I sailed side by side (well, till he stayed behind) with a brand new 412 and I can tell you I was impressed and I am not easily impressed. More on a beam reach then close upwind but then my boat is very good close upwind.

Cheers
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Old 25-11-2014, 17:01   #26
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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On the ARC they have had over 15 to 30K, sometimes gusting 40K. no much use for a parasailor.
Of course!
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Old 25-11-2014, 17:19   #27
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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In such a case, I would opt for a lifting ballasted bulb keel like the one on Hetairos. I think this is a fine alternative for a heavy swingy.

I am not sure how many cruising boats have them (do they?). I know a handful of maxi yachts do though.

b.
Yes they have but to have a big difference in draft, like 1.20 to 3.00m a lifting keel will have to occupy all the space till the top of the cabin. Not a problem on an interior of a sailboat over 55ft but a huge intrusion on a smaller yacht.

A swing keel just takes the space behind the saloon table and that's all. A lifting keel is slightly more efficient regarding drag but is more costly to build. Normally is used only on bigger and expensive yachts. There are manufacturers specialized on making them.

The concept of the modern swing keel was developed by Finot back on the 70's and has been refined. That's the one that is used by smaller sailboats.

Here you have one that will be used on a bluewater 46ft sailboat:





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Old 25-11-2014, 17:28   #28
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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I believe you talk about the "cruising population" regarding all of those that cruise non stop, even if most of them just live on the boat during the winter and hardly cruise. (...)
I am talking the population as used in statistics.

If ARC is the sample, then the population are (broad brush, continental sense of humour, and some give or take): "middle-class", middle-age, well-off, attention seeking, eagerly-socialising, self-doubting, owners of boats taking a one year sabbatical from their land careers. Add some innocent otherwise retirees.

Hence my idea to include the remaining 100 boats or so that cross from here and form a wider sample that would allow us to make some statistical guesses about what EU (mostly and vastly) people elect to be their cruising weapon(s) of choice. You would get then: more nationalities, more lifestyles, more destinations and wildly more boat types.

As for guessing boat performance data, as long as you have many enough boats of the same style, you will get decent results. You can run a size to speed regression (it will return something like 1.34 sqrt (LWL), I bet...) and then plot the size and see what distribution you get (the mean will be somewhere between 40 and 5, the right tail will be fat, the distribution may be skewed too, I guess). Many ways to entertain oneself with the numbers.

ARC is a very specific event. If you run your statistics, you will learn a lot ... about ARC participants (Here, I mean it: about their boats, off course).

;-)

Anyways, we are glad they are gone. It is so much nicer here now.

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Old 25-11-2014, 18:07   #29
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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How about one that both lifts and cants? If it wasn't for the complexity and likelihood of breakage, that would be the ultimate keel. I've only sailed once with a canting keel, but it is magic!
There are very few cruising boats with canting keels: complicated and expensive. A canting keel that cants? Even more complicated and expensive...but I know of a bright NA that had built one, not with one keel, but with two. Kind of a favorite NA to me, good taste and great creativity. The name is Defline and the boat is the "Imagine 53"

"This very audacious sailboat, designed by Martin Defline, is equipped with two hydraulically operated canting keels. A central computer manages their angulation according to the heel, and the strength and angle of the wind. The keels can be raised on each side to reduce the draft when approaching shallow anchorage. This highly equipped sailboat is to our knowledge unparalleled."

Frédéric Augendre - Voiles & Voiliers






Imagine 53 - Nouvelle Vague (Imagine 55)
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Old 25-11-2014, 18:44   #30
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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..
If ARC is the sample, then the population are (broad brush, continental sense of humour, and some give or take): "middle-class", middle-age, well-off, attention seeking, eagerly-socialising, self-doubting, owners of boats taking a one year sabbatical from their land careers. Add some innocent otherwise retirees.
...
As for guessing boat performance data, as long as you have many enough boats of the same style, you will get decent results. ...
ARC is a very specific event. If you run your statistics, you will learn a lot ... about ARC participants (Here, I mean it: about their boats, off course).

;-)
b.
Yes those and some good sailors on the racing division, not really racing but having fun while crossing, many ex racers among them, now older and cruising with the family. Some few boats are seriously racing too, at a middle level because this is not a high profile race.

Anyway in what regards the performance of performance cruisers well sailed I follow solo or duo races in different sea and wind conditions as well as other races to understand how different type of performance cruisers work under different conditions.

The number of races with duo or solo crews in performance cruisers or even cruisers is raising sharply in Europe and those give good indications regarding fast performance cruisers easy to sail solo. Sure they are boats in racing condition and a cruising load will change considerably their performance but it can give you a good idea. Anyway the ones that like to cruise on performance cruisers like to cruise light.
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