ARC 2015

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by hoppy

It's actually about Lagoon's in the ARC+ although people have surprisingly for the forum gone OT

I'll be following the ARC closely as I'm starting to look if ARC 2016 fits with my other plans

HI Hoppy.

We're registered for the 2016 ARC+ going via Cape Verde. See you there.

We are going via Cape Verde because we want to se the islands - I don't know why the cat owners want to go that way.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

You can still move the slider near the bottom of the tracker to move time backwards and forwards. The Lagoon38 Havhunden was second cat to finish behind Catana 47 El Gato.

Third. There was something bigger coming before el Gato too.

I used the slider and inaccurate as it could be I came to the following figures:

a Lagoon 38 1.15 sqrt(lwl)
a carbon mono 1.10 sqrt(lwl)
a 50 y.o. doubleender 1.05 sqrt(lwl)

This tells us a couple of stories. One the Lagoon was flying. Two the carbon took it easy. Three the doubleender shined. Four it was (vastly) a beam/broad reach which brings out the best of any boat.

Performance of the others? Errrr. It is said no more beer available in Mindelho till next cargo comes in.

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

Croatia has a modern tradition in what regards boat building. The More 55 is built in near Split, were the Salonas are built too. The similitudes in building technology, including the stainless steel interior grid, besides the location, makes me suspect that Saolona, or ex workers are involved on the building of the More.

Besides Salona (and several motorboats) there is a top yacht built there, the Murtic.

I respect the view. However, in my vocabulary, a 'modern tradition' does not exist.

Tradition is built over time and generations and in an uninterrupted way.

This does not imply a good boat cannot be built elsewhere. One can bring in skilled force, materials and tooling.

Akilarias are built in Tunisia. iPads are built in China. China does not have modern tradition in building iPads. It has inexpensive workforce and slack, if any, environmental concerns.

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

...
This tells us a couple of stories. One the Lagoon was flying. Two the carbon took it easy. ...
b.

Yes, but that carbon monohull was far from being a racer. Not a very expensive boat also, considering the type pf luxury cruiser. I would say about as much as a Oyster of the same size.

This is a post about it I have made on another thread:

Originally Posted by Polux

That is an older boat and the movie gives not an idea of the interior and perhaps is why you think the 63 Shipman has the interior space of a 40ft cat. I guess here you can have a better idea:

Anyway I agree that even if the boat is very beamy it has not the interior space of a condo cat of the same size. Even a performance cat will have more space but it will not cost less. Anyway I like performance cats and in no way I am saying the boat is a better or worse option than a cat, only that the Shipman 63 is fast.

I like diversity and many types of boats and there are sailors that prefer each one of them. It makes no sense to say that one is better than the other, except if on a personal basis.

The shipman 63, the Lagoon 40 and a Catana 53, a boat with a similar price.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I respect the view. However, in my vocabulary, a 'modern tradition' does not exist.

Tradition is built over time and generations and in an uninterrupted way.

This does not imply a good boat cannot be built elsewhere. One can bring in skilled force, materials and tooling.....
b.

When I said modern tradition I was not saying that the tradition in boat building in Croatia is not a long one: it comes from the Roman times and Venetian ones I was only referring to modern tradition meaning only that they built using modern techniques and have a tradition of using them, including carbon.

You can join to the Croatian tradition the Slovenian one (both countries belonged to "old" Yugoslavia) were the Elan are made. What matter in a new shipyard is the know how and that comes from the ones that are working there and on the case of More yachts I bet their workers and technicians have build high tech boats for many years.

Of course I am only supposing, based on the technologies used, the proximity of Salona shipyard and I can be wrong. Only a visit to the shipyard would confirm one thing or other, but I know that Salona has been experiencing some trouble in delivering boats and I would not be surprised if that has something to do with More yachts and workers leaving Salona for a better pay on the neighboring shipyard.

In many cases tradition in what regards boat building equals resistance to innovation and making the boats the good old way. You have many examples of that.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by carstenb

HI Hoppy.

We're registered for the 2016 ARC+ going via Cape Verde. See you there.

We are going via Cape Verde because we want to se the islands - I don't know why the cat owners want to go that way.

Yes, I saw you listed as entered...

Any special reason you are going via Cape Verde? So you can perhaps find out first hand why so many cats go that way?

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes, but that carbon monohull was far from being a racer. Not a very expensive boat also, considering the type pf luxury cruiser. I would say about as much as a Oyster of the same size.

This is a post about it I have made on another thread:

With all due respect, I will disagree. The Shipman looks half the weight so given their roughly similar 100% triangle SA and their vastly different underbodies and appendages, the Shipman should outperform a same length Oyster easily (?). If it does not, it is only if the crew do not want to, or do not care. (Or maybe they too have a Samsung microwave and an Apple trash compactor onboard;-)

Shipmans actually go on plane when sailed competitively.

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

When I said modern tradition I was not saying that the tradition in boat building in Croatia is not a long one: it comes from the Roman times and Venetian ones I was only referring to modern tradition meaning only that they built using modern techniques and have a tradition of using them, including carbon.

(...)

Croatians (and nearly all other nations of this region) are a Balkan nation. They are mountain people. They flooded today's Croatia lands only after the Romans retreated to where they belong.

Roman and Venetian boats were never built in Croatia.

BTW I got to see Pixel. Plenty of Sika smudges and otherwise a plain Med style charter boat - huge cockpit with folding bimini and no otherwise protection from the elements. The mast relatively 'aft' and no visible deck attachment for any staysail stay (but what could be a stay fitting visible on the mast). Odd coloured cockpit wood (Croatian pine?). Garage (a + I think). Flush hatches (a - I think). Good to hear she is good value as she looks way better than new Bavarias.

From the place where I am standing I spotted a red 51 on the mast so I knew an Outremer 51 is here. Now this one is yummie. Very yummmie.

b.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Yes, I saw you listed as entered...

Any special reason you are going via Cape Verde? So you can perhaps find out first hand why so many cats go that way?

as I said - we want to see the islands.

By the by I know the owners/sailors of Havhunden. Retired couple, he does most of the sailing. He was a boat designer when he was a bit younger

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Croatians (and nearly all other nations of this region) are a Balkan nation. They are mountain people. They flooded today's Croatia lands only after the Romans retreated to where they belong.

Roman and Venetian boats were never built in Croatia....
b.

You seem not to be very strong in History and also not to know Croatia:

"Croatian Adriatic has a long tradition of shipbuilding. From the rope-knitted small boats from Nin lagoon to the mighty Liburnas of Roman navy… The connection with the sea was so great due to the fact that the hinterland of Dalmatia was always hostile and roads were poor. Most of the trade was going along the coast up the long established routes from Orient to Venice.

In the second half of 19th century, wooden ships started their slow journey to history...and the last of the brigs and brigantines were built in Korcula and Koper (Slovenia) as two of the most important shipyards on the shores of the Austro-Hungarian Adriatic. Many other shipyards existed, like the ones on Lošinj, Trieste, Brac… ."
https://secretdalmatia.wordpress.com...ts-in-croatia/

By the way Marco Polo was born in Korkula then belonging to Venice, as great part of the Croatian Islands and shore. As you probably know Venice and Bizancio had on the medieval to renaissance ages the most powerful navies on the med (and the best shipbuilders) but Venice was several times defeated by the Croatian navy, the one crewed with mountain people and with makeshift boats LOL.

"According to Longobard writer Pavlo Đakon from the year 642, Croats have many ships under the city of Siponto (Manfredonia in Southern Italy). There are many records of the problems of the Venetian Republic with Croatian pirates in the Venetian records from the second half of the 7th century. .. The same sources speak about Croats as successful ship builders. Already at the time of Prince Vladislav (821-835), the sources mention a strong navy. Thanks to the maritime power of Croatia, prince Mislav of Croatia (835-845) enabled Venice to establish control on the Eastern Adriatic. During the rule of Prince Trpimir (845-864), Croats broke through to Friuli and in front of the Venice itself. During the rule of Prince Domagoj(864-876) the strong Croatian Navy successfully defended its coast from Venice and in 866 the Venetian Doge Partezipazio was forced to conclude peace treaty. ..

At the time of Prince Branimir (879-892) or at the time when Croatia becomes a completely independent state, the Croatian Navy continues its rise. That was the time of the famous battle in the Middle Dalmatian local waters and when the Venetians were completely defeated on 18 September 887. Venetian Doge Pietro I Candiano was killed. Between his death in 887 and 948, no new war was recorded between Venice and the Croats, which should mean the Venetians paid tribute to maintain the peace."

And more recently:

"The independence of Dubrovnik was also kept during Napoleonic wars which shows its strength and effective diplomacy. But the strength of the Republic of Ragusa was also manifested in its maritime power. The size of the Fleet of Dubrovnik in 1800, together with fishing ships, was 673 clippers. 255 of them were bigger ships that sailed outside the territorial waters of Dubrovnik. The total number of transatlantic clippers was 230 ships. ... At that time Dubrovnik had about 7,000 seamen, shipbuilders, shipowners and members of other maritime professions...."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._Croatian_Navy

[Polux]

I went for dinner, sorry for the interruption. Regarding Romans and Roman ships built in croatia:

Croatia territory was conquered to the Illyrians by the Romans. The Illyrians they were great sailors and great boat builders to the point that their more typical warship, the Liburnian becomes rapidly an important asset on the Roman navy and was adopted. A performance ship on its own time. Guess where the best Liburnians were built?

"A liburnian or liburna was a type of small galley used for raiding and patrols, particularly by the Illyrians and the Roman navy...The liburnian design was adopted by the Romans and became a key part of Ancient Rome's navy....It had one bench with 25 oars on each side, while in the late Roman Republic, it was equipped with two banks of oars (a bireme), remaining faster, lighter, and more agile than triremes.

Liburnians were different from the battle triremes, quadriremes and quinqueremes not because of rowing but rather because of its specific constructional features. It was 109 ft (33 m) long and 5 m (16 ft) wide with a 1 m (3 ft 3 in) draft. Two rows of oarsmen pulled 18 oars per side. The ship could make up to 14 knots under sail and more than 7 under oars."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburna#Seafarers

"in the 2nd half of the 1st century BC. Liburnae ships played a crucial role in the naval battle of Actium in Greece, which lasted from August 31 to September 2 of 31 BC. Because of the liburna's maneuverability and the bravery of its Liburnian crews, these ships completely defeated much bigger and heavier eastern ships, quadriremes and penterames."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians

[barnakiel]

Yes.

In the same source you can read that Polynesians were oh such great navigators. That it took a handful of Europeans to discover them. I always imagined the great navigators discovered the less great navigators, not the other way round.

If any ships were built in lands conquered by Romans and later adopted by them, it should tell us that Romans were THE men. Or else Croats would have conquer Romans. For some odd reason, they did not.

Today's Croats are Balkans. They will claim they defeated Balkans. Same thing happens when the Spanish will claim they defeated the Moors. Somehow when you travel from Morocco to Spain you fail to notice. And researchers of human genotype will tell you the rest of the story.

Of course in today's era of eagles with six heads and twenty arrowheads you will hear stories of great pedigree. Meanwhile Cook sailed to Polynesia and Romans conquered whatever they conquered. That's why Perrini Navi still builds decent boats and Elan builds decent jumping skis.

Croatia? Someone builds More boats there. Maybe Swedes as today there was a huge Swedish party onboard (boatyard crew? owners?). The rigging is Selden anyway.

And so the ARC story goes. ;-)

A loooong drift ;-) And not a 100% serious one either.

Cheers,
b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Yes.

In the same source you can read that Polynesians were oh such great navigators. That it took a handful of Europeans to discover them. I always imagined the great navigators discovered the less great navigators, not the other way round.

If any ships were built in lands conquered by Romans and later adopted by them, it should tell us that Romans were THE men. Or else Croats would have conquer Romans. For some odd reason, they did not.

Today's Croats are Balkans. They will claim they defeated Balkans. Same thing happens when the Spanish will claim they defeated the Moors. Somehow when you travel from Morocco to Spain you fail to notice. And researchers of human genotype will tell you the rest of the story.

Of course in today's era of eagles with six heads and twenty arrowheads you will hear stories of great pedigree. Meanwhile Cook sailed to Polynesia and Romans conquered whatever they conquered. That's why Perrini Navi still builds decent boats and Elan builds decent jumping skis.

Croatia? Someone builds More boats there. Maybe Swedes as today there was a huge Swedish party onboard (boatyard crew? owners?). The rigging is Selden anyway.

And so the ARC story goes. ;-)

A loooong drift ;-) And not a 100% serious one either.

Cheers,
b.

Yes, I hope it is not a serious one. You have funny ideas about history, sailors and boats and yes, More is owned by Swedish. Here you have a visit to the factory:
Segling och båtliv. - Mer More

[arsenelupiga]

croatia and slovenia are part of balkan although they would like to grow out of that.

there were mass migrations in history largest - indians and russians and some degree chinese, turks, etc - to this area, sponsored by competing churches to get ownership of area, that is why rest of eu dont want to have anything with it.

open eyes and see for yourself. religious extremism everywhere.

original habitants were overrun and do not exist any more.

it just dont make any sense to talk nation or tradition in this area as all are migrants, and odd person here and there makes no difference.

[GordMay]

In the same source you can read that Polynesians were oh such great navigators. That it took a handful of Europeans to discover them. I always imagined the great navigators discovered the less great navigators, not the other way round.

But, the Melanesian, Micronesian, and Polynesians navigated and colonized the vast Pacific (Oceania) thousands of years before Europeans ventured beyond coastal sailing. They did it without instruments, with a stone-age technology. Pretty impressive, to me.