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Old 25-11-2015, 05:16   #121
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Re: ARC 2015

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
No! ;-)

It is a rally (hence: Atlantic Rally for Cruisers), and there is a small racing division consisting of boats so varied that one does have to be a thru believer in handicaps to pay any attention to who "won" the "race". ;-)
...
A small racing division? Maybe you know many Ocean crossing races with more than 29 boats racing (on the race division)? I don't.

And that division does not include multihulls that don't have a multihull racing division even if obviously some are racing. You can see by the 0 Liters of fuel wasted at the finish, that is mandatory for the racing division.

Some of those boats are pure racing boats or do you think a VOR 65, a PogoS2, a Caroll 60, a Grand Mistral 80, 2 Challenge 72 are there for cruising
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Old 25-11-2015, 06:49   #122
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Re: ARC 2015

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A small racing division? Maybe you know many Ocean crossing races with more than 29 boats racing (on the race division)? I don't.

And that division does not include multihulls that don't have a multihull racing division even if obviously some are racing. You can see by the 0 Liters of fuel wasted at the finish, that is mandatory for the racing division.

Some of those boats are pure racing boats or do you think a VOR 65, a PogoS2, a Caroll 60, a Grand Mistral 80, 2 Challenge 72 are there for cruising
In reverse order:

VO65 contra Class40. An F1 bolid vs. a WRC car ... yeah - helluva racing.

Then again, whenever two sailing boats are in sight of each other, it is always a race, you know. ;-)

Mulltihulls and no racing divivision multihulls (yep, odd) perhaps too few RACING multihulls in the pack. (are they like 20 units on the ARC?) Guess.

Last but not least "...Maybe you know many Ocean crossing races with more than 29 boats racing (on the race division)? I don't...."

MiniTransat, TransatJacqueVabre, Route du Rhum, Transquadra, I am sorry you do not know them, time to learn French perhaps. After all, it is French sailors and French boats that make ocean racing today.

Haven't look up the tracker today! I am getting slack in my clicks.

je t'embrasse,
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Old 25-11-2015, 09:51   #123
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Re: ARC 2015

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
In reverse order:

VO65 contra Class40. An F1 bolid vs. a WRC car ... yeah - helluva racing.

Then again, whenever two sailing boats are in sight of each other, it is always a race, you know. ;-)

Mulltihulls and no racing divivision multihulls (yep, odd) perhaps too few RACING multihulls in the pack. (are they like 20 units on the ARC?) Guess.
I have said before, 21 cats. Regarding racing except in professional class racing there is always much more cruiser racers racing than pure race boats, from the Sydney-Hobart to the Fastnet.

There are other racing boats that you have not mentioned and even if I agree that the VO65 can be compared with a high tech Formula car (no F1 because they are all the same), the Class 40 has nothing to do with High Tech. In fact it is a cheap non carbon boat that can be compared to a Formula Ford.

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Last but not least "...Maybe you know many Ocean crossing races with more than 29 boats racing (on the race division)? I don't...."

MiniTransat, TransatJacqueVabre, Route du Rhum, Transquadra, I am sorry you do not know them, time to learn French perhaps. After all, it is French sailors and French boats that make ocean racing today....
je t'embrasse,
b.
This is not a solo or duo race. I was not talking about duo or solo races but about Transats with a crew, that is what this one is.

Except one mainly for Maxi yachts (Transatlantic race - 38 boats) and one occasionally on the South Atlantic (Cape to Rio - 36 boats) I am not seeing others.
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Old 25-11-2015, 18:09   #124
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Re: ARC 2015

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... the Class 40 has nothing to do with High Tech. In fact it is a cheap non carbon boat that can be compared to a Formula Ford.

... This is not a solo or duo race. I was not talking about duo or solo races but about Transats with a crew, that is what this one is.
Class 40 boats are class boats and carbon may be allowed or not, depending on which part of the boat is considered. This one (Pogo 40S2) is a vinylester-glass, infusion, post-cured hull boat with carbon mast, PBO rigging and laminate sails that cost nearly half a million USD race ready back in 2012 ... well, not quite 'cheap'. At least not in my check book!

And as for the race ;-) I have already pointed your attention to the fact that it is a rally. You were not listening.

Our minor differences of opinions aside, what slowed down that Neel? Maybe they lost a sail or something. The conditions now look like she should be smoking but it seems like she slowed down today quite a bit.

BTW Now after the ARC is gone some very sweet designs sailed in. There is one cat that looks like she can. I will try to ask her driver tomorrow what the design she is. Maybe will snap a pic to share. You may like this one, I think.

PS Tomorrow two young kayakers take off from here in a boat 20 ft long and two feet across. I suggested a little spinnaker maybe ... but they would not listen

Off to my bunk now,
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Old 25-11-2015, 18:52   #125
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Re: ARC 2015

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Class 40 boats are class boats and carbon may be allowed or not, depending on which part of the boat is considered. This one (Pogo 40S2) is a vinylester-glass, infusion, post-cured hull boat with carbon mast, PBO rigging and laminate sails that cost nearly half a million USD race ready back in 2012 ... well, I not quite 'cheap'. At least not in my check book!

And as for the race ;-) I have already pointed your attention to the fact that it is a rally. You were not listening.

Our minor differences of opinions aside, what slowed down that Neel? Maybe they lost a sail or something. The conditions now look like she should be smoking but it seems like she slowed down today quite a bit.

BTW Now after the ARC is gone some very sweet designs sailed in. There is one cat that looks like she can. I will try to ask her driver tomorrow what the design she is. Maybe will snap a pic to share. You may like this one, I think.

PS Tomorrow two young kayakers take off from here in a boat 20 ft long and two feet across. I suggested a little spinnaker maybe ... but they would not listen

Off to my bunk now,
b.
There are crazy guys to do almost everything. There is a guy training to cross the Atlantic paddling standing with a single paddle

Regarding the Class40 I know well the class,from the beginning and I was referring to the hull. When one talks about a carbon boat normally it refers to a boat fully built in carbon, not to a fiberglass boat with carbon spars. Plenty of those, including mine, if one wants that option.

And yes a fully equipped oceanic fast racing boat for 500 000 Euros is not expensive. Anyway you can find very competitive recent boats for sell at about 350 000 euros.

The Pogo class40 that is racing is an old S2 that can be acquired for about 250 000 euros. Not expensive for a boat with that performance. It would not be competitive on a top professional transat, like the French ones.

The old Open40 with the hull built in carbon were much more expensive for a not very different performance, in fact with the development of design today's class40 are faster.
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Old 25-11-2015, 23:22   #126
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Re: ARC 2015

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"So, condomarans are 15 to 25 % faster than similar length mono over decent track seem about right."

Yes, lots of sense. You have made a generic statement that as any generic statment should be valid in any situation. Look at the average results on the ARC and ARC+ and you will see (I hope) that what you have said has not any sustainability in what regards ARC average performance of monohulls and multihulls.

Statistics mean nothing

By the way, your statement does not also make any sense in what regards the IRC rating of the boats (monohulls and condo cats) being many times condo cats slower than same sized modern monohulls and there is nothing better to have an idea of a real potential speed of a boat than a serious rating and IRC rating is one of the best.

Off course I am not talking about performance monohulls versus condo cats. In what regards rating and sailing potential performance monohulls are faster, but rating has in consideration downwind and upwind performance and the ARC is just a downwind ride.

sorry, i guess i wasnt clear where i am coming from.

in user forum someone with lots of experience with monos and cats claimed that. i did not believe, and still do not believe that.

what i meant is that in this particular rally, his statement could be true. I normally do not follow any rallies/races, so this could be 1 in a 100 conditions for cats.

also, it is harder to learn good sailing on cats. One needs to use advantages of cats - wide beam - to improve. No books about that.
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Old 26-11-2015, 05:51   #127
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Re: ARC 2015

The Dufor 34 that was going well has lost his mast !! All OK, not a fun trip back,I wonder how much fuel they have ?
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Old 26-11-2015, 06:23   #128
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Re: ARC 2015

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The Dufor 34 that was going well has lost his mast !! All OK, not a fun trip back,I wonder how much fuel they have ?
They were clearly pushing the the envelop on that boat. The performance was just incredible and when you push too much sometimes things break. Nice to know they are alright. They are good sailors, it would be interesting to see if they abandon the boat or if they have the means to jury rig and bring the boat to a port.
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Old 26-11-2015, 11:19   #129
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Re: ARC 2015

So, besides the sad new on the Dufour 34 what's the news?

Problems also on the Pogo s2, that is going much slower. Hopefully they have just blown up the spinnakers. The difference of pace is so big that the knierim 49 is very near. The Neal 45 trimatran continues to be the fastest boat among the multihulls and is not far from the Knierim 49. Both are chased by a very well sailed X 562.

The Neel 45 is not only the fastest multihull in real time but the 1st on compensated also and that means the better sailed multihull.

The Outremer 51 leaved the Pogo 50 slightly behind and is chased by an old but fast Oyster 48 light wave. A very well sailed Fountain Pajot 48 has been catching the fastest Outremer 51 side by side with a grand Soleil 46. A Grand Soleil 52 is slightly behind, sailing side by side with the 2th Outremer 51.

A jeanneau 57 sails slightly behind as well as a Dufour 560. Not far comes a Lagoon 450, side by side with a Grand Soleil 43 and a Gib Sea 51. They are chased by the little Luffe 37, the best sailed boat on the cruising division that sails side by side with the Sunfast 3600.

Chasing these and not far, a Wauquiez 40, a Reflex 38, a First40, a Dufour 40e, a Swan 44, and a Swan 46.

Last year it was the year of the Xyachts, with many going fast, this year it seems to be the year of Grand Soleil, with many going fast.

And the More 55 that yesterday as sailing fast following a Farr 520? Well, they seem to have noticed that the Farr was heading for the Canary islands for repairs and tacked almost 90 degrees to the North. I confess that I don't understand their strategy. The Southern route seemed good, even if not as far as the Canary Islands and the Southern wind 72 is following it.

It is a very lonely opinion, since very few are following that route, but it seems a good one to me. The weaker winds are arriving, they will be affecting more the ones on the middle courses but the prediction shows that on the South they will have stronger winds first.

The ones more to the North should be careful because after the very weak winds will come strong winds (27k) and there is always the possibility of them reaching further South than predicted. 27 k winds may not look to strong but that measure does not refer to gusts that in that case could be near 40k.

Interesting to follow on the next days, but not easy for the ones that are there. Probably performance monohulls will have the upper hand on the next days (they sail faster than the others with light winds).

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Old 26-11-2015, 13:38   #130
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Re: ARC 2015

This is the weather for the next 2 weeks from Predictwind. I have also included the weather routing for a Volvo 65 from Team Brunei’s current position. The are estimated to finish in 3 days 2 hours.



For a laugh I added a few other boats polars in for their times from that position

Wild Oats XI 3 days 2 hours
Class 40 5 days 1 hours
Figaro 7 days 7 hours

For the cat fans

AC72 1 day 11 hours
MOD70 2 days 12 hours
Lagoon 52 7 days 11 hours

and my own SO40 8 days 6 hour
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Old 26-11-2015, 14:03   #131
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Re: ARC 2015

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Problems also on the Pogo s2, that is going much slower. Hopefully they have just blown up the spinnakers.
It is the rudder for them. Guess if they have a spare.

I think they will be slowed down as the post stands proud and a round object creates more drag than a naca profile that used that round object as a post ;-)

Perhaps they can pull out the post to get rid of extra drag, but unless they carry a spare rudder they will be disadvantaged on port tack ;-(

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Old 26-11-2015, 14:09   #132
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Re: ARC 2015

They are not kickups and so it will be from difficult to impossible to swap sides.

http://www.finot-conq.com/en/sites/d...mg_1168mod.jpg

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Old 26-11-2015, 15:21   #133
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Re: ARC 2015

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This is the weather for the next 2 weeks from Predictwind. I have also included the weather routing for a Volvo 65 from Team Brunei’s current position. The are estimated to finish in 3 days 2 hours.



..
Nice We can see that they will escape the weaker winds. The slower boats don't. Lot's of work in what regards routing and winds.
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Old 26-11-2015, 15:25   #134
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Re: ARC 2015

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It is the rudder for them. Guess if they have a spare.

I think they will be slowed down as the post stands proud and a round object creates more drag than a naca profile that used that round object as a post ;-)

Perhaps they can pull out the post to get rid of extra drag, but unless they carry a spare rudder they will be disadvantaged on port tack ;-(

b.
Don't think they carry a spar and in what racing regards they are done but having a two rudder setup it is a very nice thing and not only for racing neither only in what regards efficiency. If one breaks due to the impact with some debris it is always possible to get back home, slower but safely.

It is also possible to do that without rudder if the weather is not too bad but it is incomparably slower and much more dificult.
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Old 26-11-2015, 18:38   #135
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Re: ARC 2015

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Don't think they carry a spar and in what racing regards they are done but having a two rudder setup it is a very nice thing and not only for racing neither only in what regards efficiency. If one breaks due to the impact with some debris it is always possible to get back home, slower but safely.

It is also possible to do that without rudder if the weather is not too bad but it is incomparably slower and much more dificult.
Hmmm. Yes but two rudders are more vulnerable than one. No? They are off center and as such they are not protected (if partially) by the keel.

I like two rudders, but I also like them to be kickups even if kickups create their own set of challenges.

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