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Old 18-11-2015, 11:08   #46
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Re: ARC 2015

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
croatia and slovenia are part of balkan although they would like to grow out of that.

there were mass migrations in history largest - indians and russians and some degree chinese, turks, etc - to this area, sponsored by competing churches to get ownership of area, that is why rest of eu dont want to have anything with it.

open eyes and see for yourself. religious extremism everywhere.

original habitants were overrun and do not exist any more.

it just dont make any sense to talk nation or tradition in this area as all are migrants, and odd person here and there makes no difference.
You obviously don't know both countries well, I do and not only from sailing there. You are talking nonsense. Both countries are part of the European Community.

That zone was a conflicting area for hundreds of years simply because it was for centuries the frontier zone between two civilizations, the Occidental and the Eastern one, first against the Roman east empire (Byzantium) and then against muslin Turks. Serbs and Croats have a proud history regarding that fight and it is not by accident that the Turks went no further in Europe.

Major players on that fight were also Venice and the Austro-Hungarian empire (that at different times included Eslovenia and parts of Croatia). Maybe you are talking about Albania, that is a muslim country, on the other side of that old fighting border.

If you want to see to what point you are being unfair regarding Croatia and Croats, have a look here, about the history of the region on the last centuries:
http://www.historyofjihad.org/croatia.html

So please, everybody, lets talk about boats!
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Old 18-11-2015, 11:34   #47
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Re: ARC 2015

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post

(...) Serbs and Croats have a proud history (...)

So please, everybody, lets talk about boats!
Proud and not all that proud too, similarly to any other country of the world.

But do they have any proud sailboat building history? HR? Contest? Rustler? Victoria? Morris? Swan? Hinckley?

So back to boats ... ;-) .... uhm, seen Lagoon 39 today. Had a long good look. These small Lagoons look so smart. Then stumbled upon a Lagoon 620, what a monster!

How can two so radically aesthetically different boats come from the same drawing board? Or were there two boards?

Otherwise nothing new here. We are waiting for Brunel but she may go to the Royal basin so not sure I will have my share ohs and ahs when they arrive.

Cheers,
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Old 18-11-2015, 15:15   #48
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Re: ARC 2015

The ARC+ departed today from the Verdes, so we can stop the history lessons.
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Old 18-11-2015, 16:23   #49
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Re: ARC 2015

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Proud and not all that proud too, similarly to any other country of the world.

But do they have any proud sailboat building history? HR? Contest? Rustler? Victoria? Morris? Swan? Hinckley?

So back to boats ... ;-) .... uhm, seen Lagoon 39 today. Had a long good look. These small Lagoons look so smart. Then stumbled upon a Lagoon 620, what a monster!

How can two so radically aesthetically different boats come from the same drawing board? Or were there two boards?
.....
Cheers,b.
Lagoon 390 and 620, just a question of scale

Do you have noticed that regarding tradition you talked about 7 brands....from 5 different countries? and in what regards all those only one has a decent production? and most of them are more dead than alive? And regarding the ones that have innovative boats only Swan and in a lesser scale HR. Well Hinckley too, but let's see if they can produce more than one boat. I am afraid that Hinckley may well be a victim of his own conservative tradition, with possible buyers being frightened with a contemporary boat.

I talked about modern tradition that means modern building techniques on cruising boats and on the 4 brands of cruising sailingboats that are made in Slovenia and croatia two make carbon boats, Shipman and Murtic. The other two (Elan and Salona) brought great innovation to that market sector:

Salona producing inexpensive quality boats with materials and techniques only used before in more expensive boats, namely a stainless steel structural grid that takes the keel and shrouds, distributing all the charges on the hull, vacuum infusion, vinylester based epoxy resins and even the use of mineral carbon composites on bulkheads. Last year a Salona 44 was elected by sail magazine boat of the year.

Elan revolutionizing the design of family performance cruisers, introducing planing boats at a price that made them accessible, also building with modern techniques and materials, including also infusion an vinilester resins.

Both brands enlarged a market sector that till then was "propriety" of Beneteau with the First series, the one of the inexpensive performance cruisers and made that in a way that there is talks that First is discontinuing his line. Some boats of the two brands:


and regarding Salona a mention to the 60fter:



Regarding the carbon ones, the Shipman (it was one of them that clean the first leg of the ARC+, well ahead of bigger cats) and the Murtic, the images speak for themselves:

https://vimeo.com/12387310

So I would say that the More 55 and the future 42 are in good company on a region that is rich in modern boat building traditions (if they are modern, they cannot be old).

By the way I am looking for a Pasarela to substitute the one on my boat that I find too heavy, one that could be folded and stored in a box, inside the cockpit locker, for not having it on the side of the boat creating difficulties on the geenaker handling. I found what I wanted, emailed for prices and when they replied (today) surprise, surpise, it was a Slovenian company.
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Old 18-11-2015, 17:13   #50
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Re: ARC 2015

Grids are not innovative at all but maybe use of SS makes a new sense. Why use SS in this application? What about the stiffness of the shell then? Are shells (skins, hulls) of boats with grids built to lighter scantlings?

I am off to the tracker now and will watch the start of the ARC later here in LP. They are about to get a fine, if cold, take off. Then some testing conditions on days two and three. They will need plenty of plastic bags given they way they are 'getting ready for the rally' in local bars. ;-)

I think I wrote here (or elsewhere) that Manfred the Flying German is here again... with another boat. Now he came in a big big Oyster. This guy sure has what it takes.

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Old 18-11-2015, 17:17   #51
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Re: ARC 2015

Is there any reef en route? https://www.worldcruising.com/arc/Bo...BookingID=5073
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Old 18-11-2015, 17:49   #52
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Re: ARC 2015

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Grids are not innovative at all but maybe use of SS makes a new sense. Why use SS in this application? What about the stiffness of the shell then? Are shells (skins, hulls) of boats with grids built to lighter scantlings?
....
b.
No, no lighter scantlings only stronger. I did not mean that it was innovative as a system, they were used by X yacht, they were innovative in that price tag. The X yacht are much more expensive boats.

I had a look at the ARC+. after all the performance of that old Laurin 32 was not that impressive: they used the engine for 14 hours and that on a 5 days crossing is considerable.

I hate compensated rating, the one that won that division was a Tayana 37 that arrived almost a day later than a Halberg Rassy 352. To be fair the Tayana wasted no fuel and the Rassy had two hours and a half on the engine, probably for charging batteries.

On this division of slower boats among the ones that took more time to cross were also the ones with more engine hours, a Camper and Nicholson 48 (20 hours) a Franchini 45 (32) and a Dudley dix 36 (41 hours). They arrived with not a big difference among them and also a good part of a day after the Halberg Rassy 352.

The Halberg Rassy is an old design but it showed here that can be still be sailed reasonably fast. A boat with a well deserved good reputation. The Laurin 32 did not that bad, arriving about 5 hours earlier than the Halberg Rassy but with more 11.5 hours on the engine. Also a good old boat.
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Old 18-11-2015, 17:58   #53
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Shipman 63

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Yes, but that carbon monohull was far from being a racer. Not a very expensive boat also, considering the type pf luxury cruiser. I would say about as much as a Oyster of the same size.
Here is Shipman 63 Bepa owner's thread starting from the launch and up until today. It is in Russian, but Google Translate will help. Plus many various pictures.
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Old 19-11-2015, 00:47   #54
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Re: ARC 2015

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You obviously don't know both countries well, I do and not only from sailing there. You are talking nonsense. Both countries are part of the European Community.

That zone was a conflicting area for hundreds of years simply because it was for centuries the frontier zone between two civilizations, the Occidental and the Eastern one, first against the Roman east empire (Byzantium) and then against muslin Turks. Serbs and Croats have a proud history regarding that fight and it is not by accident that the Turks went no further in Europe.

Major players on that fight were also Venice and the Austro-Hungarian empire (that at different times included Eslovenia and parts of Croatia). Maybe you are talking about Albania, that is a muslim country, on the other side of that old fighting border.

If you want to see to what point you are being unfair regarding Croatia and Croats, have a look here, about the history of the region on the last centuries:
History of Jihad against the Croats and Slovenes (1389 - 1699)

So please, everybody, lets talk about boats!
sure. you know it all. i know only this much - history in books is never truth but written for agenda of current elite.


truth is: no wife likes monos
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Old 19-11-2015, 04:13   #55
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Re: ARC 2015

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
sure. you know it all. i know only this much - history in books is never truth but written for agenda of current elite.


truth is: no wife likes monos
It depends if she know how to sail or not. We have passed together by some scary situations, one of them that would have capsized any cat that we could have afforded, unless the mast broke first...and that rarely happens.

Going my taste in what regards sailing and cruising for fast boats I had kept an interest in fast performance cats, that due to lack of money would have to be small ones (33/38ft). My wife does not want to hear about it. She knows that I like to sail fast and she knows that small performance cats can be capsized when pushed hard.
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Old 19-11-2015, 06:30   #56
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Re: ARC 2015

So, let's talk here about the ARC+ and while we wait for them to sail for some days to have a look at the positions let's have a look at the first leg, till Cabo Verde, including motoring hours, but first some information regarding how it went that first leg, with posts I made on another thread. They are inverted in what regards posting, the first below was the last to be posted:
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And Lars and his Lagoon 38 have just arrived at Cabo Verde. On the lighter winds he was overtaken by all the boats of the group he was sailing with that arrived with this order Oyster 575/Azuree 46 and Baltic 52, but the performance of the crew of the Lagoon 38 was awesome, the best in all the fleet.

Lars has a blog and facebook. Maybe he posts there some photos on arrival and share some impressions about the crossing:

https://www.facebook.com/lars.oudrup
Logbog Havhunden 6.-11.9.2015 | Lise Gerdes

We will know soon about the hours of engine use for each of these and other boats. I would not be surprised if the Lagoon was among the ones that used less the engine.

Almost arriving are two other boats, a Fountain Pajot Victoria 67 and a Halberg Rassy 54. Then at some distance comes a group of 4 cats and three monohulls: a Fountain Pajot Sanya 57, a Catana 582, a Leopard 44, a Leopard 48, a Southerly 49, a Sun Odyssey 49 and a Oyster 54.

Among the slower boats, at the end of the fleet we can find some old monohull heavy designs, some small boats but also some cats.
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Looking at the ARC+ again, we will see that the Shipman 62 is already in Cabo Verde, the X612 not far and that, at some distance, the new Fountain Pajot victoria 67 is out-sailing a Catana 472 and being outsailed by an old Swan 651.

Further back, on another group the Lagoon 38 sails alongside with a Azuree 46, an Oyster 575 and a Baltic 52.

Further back follows a Halberg Rassy 54 and then after, some curious couples, sailing near by: A southerly 49 (Distant shores) with a Catana 582, and a Leopard 44; a bit back, a Leopard 48 with a Sun Odyssey 49. They are all outsailing clearly another Fountain Pajot victoria 67, a Fountain Pajot Sanya 57 and a Lagoon 52.

The Lagoon 38 skipped by Lars continue to be the best sailed boat in all the fleet and is 1st in compensated overall.
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It is a good time to look at the positions now, when the one that is leading (by far) is already near Cabo Verde:

That one is a performance monohull cruiser, a luxury one, kind of an Oyster on speeds, a Shipman 62. That's a great cruising boat and I remember that the first Shipman, 10 years ago or so, won the European boat of the year award in its class.

The second one is a X612, a 20 year old performance monohull cruiser. Then comes a group of 3, a 33 year old Swan 651, a 15 year old performance cat, a Catana 473 and a new Fountain Pajot 67 Victoria.

Then Isolated a new performance cruiser, an Azuree 46.

Then comes the group with Django and his Lagoon 38, a Oyster 575 and a 25 year old Baltic 52. Then other group with a performance Catana 582, a Halberg Rassy 54 and a Leopard 44.

Close another group with a Leopard 48, a Southerly 49, a Moody 54, a Sun Odyssey 49 and a Oceanis 54.

Follows another group with a Oyster 545, a Lagoon 52, a Oyster 54, a Sun Odyssey 54DS, a Sun Odissey 45.2 a 36ft Albin Stratus, another Fountain Pajot Victoria 67, a Beneteau Oceannis 44cc, A fountain Pajot Sanya 57, a Wauquiez pilot salon 40, a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 439 and a Lagoon 400.

Next group with a Island Packet 420, an old Laurin 32 (congratulations to them for a fantastic passage), and Hunter 42, a Halberg Rassy 352, a Comodoro 51, a Beneteau 473, a Bavaria 36, a Lagoon 400S2 and a Bavaria 38.

These are the ones ahead till a bit more than half the boats. Only a mention to the slower ones: A Lagoon 420, a Catalina 42 and a Dix 38.

A pity not to have more performance mono hulls on the ARC+. On the big one (ARC, a direct transat) it will be easier to compare their performance with the one of cats and performance cats. Here the smaller we have is the Azuree 46.
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So, let's look at the boats that arrived first and see the fuel that they have wasted (numbers in liters): Shipman 62 (0), X612 (0), Swan 651 (0), Fountain Pajot victoria 67 (11.50), Catana 472 (2.37), Oyster 575 (0), Azuree 46 (0), Baltic 52 (0), Lagoon 38 (0), Fountain Pajot victoria 67 (66.00), Halberg Rassy 54 (9.50), Fountain Pajot Sanya 57 (50.40) Leopard 44 (14.28), Southerly 49 (2.52), Leopard 48 (2.77), Catana 582 (0), Sun Odyssey 49 (0), Lagoon 52 (0), Moody 54DS (2.52), Oyster 54 (8), Bavaria 44 (26.50), Beneteau Oceanis 54 (0), Beneteau Oceanis 44cc (7.50), Fountain Pajot Lipari 41 (39.17), Sun Odyssey 45.5 (8.33), Oyster 545 (0).

Looking at the Diesel we can see that cats motored more than monohulls, the most of the bigger ones a lot and that is quite surprising since theoretically a Fountain Pajot 67 has a rating higher (faster) than the one of the X612 that was the 2th to arrive without using the engine (one of them, the slower, motored for 66 hours).

Regarding cats preferring the ARC+, with a stop, to the non stop ARC due to the possibility of refueling I would not say that is the main reason: Even if cats used more the engine than monohulls, among the 16 cats only 7 used the engine for more than 3.5 hours (and those used for a lot more hours).

We can see also note the fantastic performance of the Lagoon 38, also without using the engine.

Regarding affordable mass production cruisers the first to arrive was the Azuree 44, followed by the Lagoon 38, a Sun Odyssey 49, a Bavaria 44, A Beneteau Oceanis 44cc, a Fountain Pajot Lipari 41 and a Sun Odyssey 45.5.
I am considering new boats (or the more recent model of that boat) with a basic cost not higher than USD 400 000.

We can also see that there are very few new performance cruisers on the ARC+ and proportionally more performance cats than performance monohulls. In what regards smaller monohulls the only one that can be considered a recent performance monohull is the Azuree 44. Regarding the big ones we have as a relatively new one only the Shipman 62, since the X612 is already a 20 year old design. In what concerns cats we have here two Catanas, a 582 and a 472.

There are many ways to look at this numbers so, if you want to look at them in a different way, please do so.
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Old 19-11-2015, 06:36   #57
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Re: ARC 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
sure. you know it all. i know only this much - history in books is never truth but written for agenda of current elite.


truth is: no wife likes monos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
It depends if she know how to sail or not. We have passed together by some scary situations, one of them that would have capsized any cat that we could have afforded, unless the mast broke first...and that rarely happens.

Going my taste in what regards sailing and cruising for fast boats I had kept an interest in fast performance cats, that due to lack of money would have to be small ones (33/38ft). My wife does not want to hear about it. She knows that I like to sail fast and she knows that small performance cats can be capsized when pushed hard.
What do you mean by this statement?
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Old 19-11-2015, 07:07   #58
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Re: ARC 2015

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HI Hoppy.

We're registered for the 2016 ARC+ going via Cape Verde. See you there.
Just had the 2016 sailing conversation with the missus and she is very happy with my ARC suggestion, so I'm allowed to book. Need to talk to potential crew before I decide if we do ARC or ARC+
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Old 19-11-2015, 07:15   #59
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Re: ARC 2015

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Just had the 2016 sailing conversation with the missus and she is very happy with my ARC suggestion, so I'm allowed to book. Need to talk to potential crew before I decide if we do ARC or ARC+
Well, congratulations!!!
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Old 19-11-2015, 07:26   #60
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Re: ARC 2015

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What do you mean by this statement?
I thought I was pretty clear, if a wife does not know how to sail and know little about sailboats it would be seduced by the big all around view of a cat, the bigger cockpit space and the easy transition from the saloon to the cockpit.

If she knows about sailing and sailing boats her preference for a cat regarding a monohull would not be different from any other sailor and she will judge, like the husband, the advantages of the two types of boats and regarding that judgement, most sailors prefer monohulls.

I know of couples were the wife is by far the better sailor and I had given you the example of my wife, that not only knows how to sail as she knows one or two things about sailboats. From the two I am the one that would consider having a cat. She don't even want to talk about that.
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